Talk:List of surviving veterans of World War I/Archive 4

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Quality of Surviving Veteran Articles

Hi all. I've been thinking that since there are so few remaining veterans and that they are so important, it would be nice if we could get them up to as high a quality as possible - B class, Good Article, A class, maybe even Featured Article. Most likely, with a little work, Henry Allingham has the greatest potential to become a Featured Article, which would be nice if it happened. More realistically though, I think if we have the time we should work on bringing the articles up to code. This is, of course, a lot more difficult (at least for us English speakers) for the veterans from non-English speaking countries, but it would be nice to do what we can for all of them.

Anyhow, what I really need your help with is John Babcock. I've rewritten his article not yet well enough for A-class, but I think I've covered every criteria for a Good Article but one: an image. There's a great hi-res one here, but unfortunately I don't think Canadian government works are public domain, like US ones. Anyhow, I posted this here because I'm hoping to catch the attention of a more image savvy Wikipedian with an interest in the subject. Does anyone know of a free image or have contacts to get permission for a non-free one? Or better yet, if anyone's met with him and has a personal photo that they'd like to release. I'd like to improve the John Babcock further, but it's sort of pointless to add more information without at least one image. Anyhow, if anyone can help, let me know. I watch this page if you want to reply here. Canadian Paul 00:08, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Well I guess we're starting by nominating the entire list to FA status! I sincerely hope that it makes it, but I think that a lot of editors will be opposed to it. Don't get your hopes up too much. In fact, it might not have been such a great idea to bring this list to big attention, because I can see experienced editors poking holes in it. William Olin and Orin Peterson are unreferenced. When they check the sources, they'll notice that Raymond Cambefort could be construed as original research. I'll do whatever I can to help out but, if we want any chance of this being featured, we have to keep cool and civil heads, accept criticism and, above all, back up all concerns with Wikipedia policy. Canadian Paul 07:49, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't mind them poking holes, it isn't a problem if it results in a better article. I put this article up as a Featured List because it is difficult to see how it could be anything but a FL, it doesn't constitute a article and the FL has less of a threshold. Mind you if you see some of the FLs that go through it would make you wonder if this doesn't succeed (post tidying). It's a good a time as any, straight away after a snowball AfD keep, which obviously had a good deal of support from people that don't contribute to the article in any way. Like you though I'm not rating our chances that highly; however I'm on holiday so have the time to address (most) matters. RichyBoy 08:57, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Well the article has made it as a featured list \o/ Well done to everyone that has contributed, particulary those which have performed the real leg-work of identifying veterans and tabulating the page in the early days. RichyBoy 11:30, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Although I'm not so sure if it should have been promoted to Featured Article - I suspect that could be removed as it's only the FLC process which has garnered comments, we shall see. RichyBoy 11:36, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

What is the address for the Genarians website, please?

The actual page is http://www.genarians.com/WWI%20Veterans.html. There are photos of all but three veterans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.114.211.143 (talk • contribs)

All but one actually: Kästner. Canadian Paul 18:11, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

And i don't think they get one because Kästner don't want to much attention. A newspaper in his city wanted to write a story about him with a foto but he didn't want this.
Statistician 15:09, 11 September 2007 (CET)

Understandable of course. I'm not entirely surprised. There's obviously different attitudes to both World Wars in Germany. Cheers, CP 16:08, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

J. Russell Coffey update

Today I stopped by J. Russell Coffey's nursing home to deliver him a card for his 109th birthday. I live only 38 miles (61 kilometers) from his residence so it is not to much of a drive. He is much less communicative than he was last year, probably medicated to keep him asleep except for feeding, nursing, and occasionally being read to by the nurses. The nurse pushing his wheelchair to the lunchroom took the birthday card and promised to read it to him later as he was almost completely unresponsive at that time. Inspite of his near vegetative state the nurse said that he is in generally good health. While I doubt that he will live another year and become a SuperCentenarian, you just never know. By the way, the "J." in his name stands for "James", as that is what it says on the door of his room in the nursing home. JeepAssembler 19:09, 1 September 2007

Odd: I had found "John" for it online a couple of months ago. Extremely sexy 13:52, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Robert had estimated from photographs that he could be next to go, along with Tuveri and Borroni. August has really sustained the numbers though. We're now far below a one a week average for the first time this year. 78.145.40.52 19:23, 3 September 2007 (UTC)Captain celery _____________________________________________________ I would not wish to speculate on who may be next to go from a picture. I remember seeing a picture of Moses Hardy about a year before he died, and from the picture I saw of him, I couldn't believe he lived as long as he did. Also, some of the pictures of the veterans, they have looked very good for their age. I would have guessed Lloyd Brown would have made it to 110 via his picture. Once you reach these great ages, It really is up in the air. I read an article last year saying Coffey has the heart of a 60 year old. I think a lot of it has to do with still being active. If that is the case, I see Mr. Allingham or Mr. Buckles perhaps being the last. I have been in contact with several families, like Mr. Tuveri's. In his picture he looks as robust as the others. However, his family states that they hope he will pass soon, as he is very sick, weak and in a lot of pain. We can guess all day long, but that is all it would be. The last verified Civil War verteran - Albert Woolson was in the hospital in a coma for two and a half months before he died. You would think the smallest sickness would take these aged 105+ veterans away. However, they are truly fighters. They had to be strong to make it this far!!!!! I know genetics ect. helps, but as Mr. Landis stated,- "They will have to shoot me, to get rid of me." It looks like August 2007 (with the exception of one month in 2006) is the first calander month since the wars end, that no one from the Great War died. 209.244.188.174 20:58, 3 September 2007 (UTC)(PershinBoy)

And now 2 months in a row! Let's hope it continues...DerbyCountyinNZ 22:56, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Last African Veteran?

This claim, as all others, must be rigorously validated. But given the facts that several hundred thousand Africans must have been mobilized for WW1 (between 3.3 mil and 4.9 mil total British colonial subjects throughout the world were mobilized, for example) and that serious fighting did take place on that continent (most notably in the Tanganyika/Mozambique theater) then at least some besides the lone South African case on these pages should have been alive after January 1st, 1999. JeepAssembler 19:23, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

What claim exactly, my dear friend? Extremely sexy 13:53, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

He's refering to the case of M'Lthiria Mukaria, highlighted by Bruce a couple of weeks ago. 78.145.40.52 19:16, 3 September 2007 (UTC)Captain celery

Italian service info

Greetings,

Just in case any of this was missed, from Apr 3 2007 on the World's Oldest People message board:

Re: Remaining WWI veterans re-check

Greetings,

I can confirm that as of today the 7 WWI veterans living in Italy are alive. All of them are reported in stable conditions, except for Alberto Agazzi, who has presently a severe renal failure and will probably hospitalized today.

I don't have any information about the 2 italian veterans living in France.

Also find below a brief summary of the military service of each veteran (info not available for Serioli and Bertolami) These informations have been provided by Alessandro Vanni, a researcher on First World War events.

PONTICELLI Lazzaro 07/12/1897 military corps: Foreign Legion (France) (1914-15); 3° regiment "Alpini" (Italy) (1917-18),

battles: Monte Pal Piccolo e Monte Cucco 1917-18 (in Italy)

TUVERI Giustino 15/05/1898

152° regiment infantry (Brigata Sassari),

Altopiano di Asiago (Col del Rosso) 1917-18

BORRONI Delfino 23/08/1898

14° regiment "Bersaglieri" (IV Brigata)

Pasubio e Caporetto 1917

CHIARELLO Domenico Francesco 05/11/1898

68° regiment infantry (Brigata Palermo),

Albania 1918

AGAZZI Alberto 30/01/1899

Artillery

Monte Grappa (?) 1917-18

COSTANZO Pasquale 21/05/1899

119° regiment infantry (Brigata Emilia),

Monte Grappa (?) 1917-18

CARTA Giovanni Antonio 28/12/1899

151° regiment infantry (Brigata Sassari),

Altopiano di Asiago (Col del Rosso) e Piave 1917-18

Best regards

Giovanni Alunni

Some of the above information might be used, for example, if an article were made for Pasquale Costanzo. Ryoung122 18:53, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Flyboys Movie

In October of 2006 a movie called "Flyboys" came out in theaters across the U.S.A. (I don't know about the rest of the world). It was about World War 1 fighter pilots (Specifically the Escadrille Lafayette of Americans who flew for France prior to the U.S. entering the war) and featured very good aerial combat scenes and realistic depictions of the planes flown and the problems they had (Hand-starting the propellers, tendency of engines to catch fire, and the lack of ejection seats and parachutes). If a WW1 bi-plane or tri-plane caught fire, had a wing disabled, etc.; the pilot had three choices: 1.Go down with the plane, 2.Jump from several thousand feet, or 3.Take out his pistol, pointed it at his head, and take the quickest, most painless way out. I later recalled having read in a trivia book that the the last British fighter pilot of that war died in 2002; I wonder if any "Flyboys" from other nations lived later than that.JeepAssembler 17:14, 8 September 2007 (UTC)JeepAssemblerJeepAssembler 17:14, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

The last British fighter pilot to see combat was 2nd Lieutenant Gerald Dixon, Royal Flying Corps, who died in April 2002. He featured in a UK TV series 'Wings' about the history of aviation shown c.2000. Dixon was survived by John Poppitt (d. 17th October 2004) who was still in training at the cessation of hostilities, and Sgt. Charles Watson (d. 1st January 2005). Watson was a navigator who on one occasion had to crash land his damaged aircraft after the pilot was blinded by escaping aviation spirit. See interview attached [1]. The redoubtable Henry Allingham also flew a number of sorties over enemy lines as an observer, spotter and navigator.

As for 'flyboys' from other countries, Canadian Henry Botterell (d. 3rd January 2003) flew in France with the British Royal Naval Air Service. His exploits are recorded on Wikipedia here [2]. Hope this helps. 217.42.89.209 20:51, 9 September 2007 (UTC)Bruce

Anonymous Veterans

______________________________________ Unverified WWI veteran claims - I noticed that we still have the Unverified French veteran listed, because he wishes to remain anonymous. Earlier this year it was brought to our attention that there was a United States WWI veteran that wishes to remain anonymous. Shouldn't we also add him to the listing. (PershinBoy) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.114.211.143 (talk) 17:30, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

There is a difference...with the French man we know his date of birth (Mar 23 1899) and even first name (Bernard X), we can recognize if he is deceased when he is no longer in the list of France's oldest persons. In the US case we don't have a name, only a rumor from a highly-placed source. It might be true but we don't have enough to go on here. Note the French anonymous case can be cited through the WOP webgroup, at least.Ryoung122 22:40, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Greetings,

My French source has hinted that another anonymous veteran has been discovered after 'Bernard Delaire'...so stay tuned... Ryoung122 06:07, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Update: the next French 'anonymous veteran' is said to be 107 years old.Ryoung122 00:29, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Change 'allegiance' to 'nationality'

Greetings,

I don't like the below infoboxes because they use the word 'allegiance' which is POV:

Claude Choules March 3, 1901 – Place of birth Pershore, Worcestershire, England Allegiance British

Australian 

Service/branch Royal Navy Royal Australian Navy Years of service 1916 – 1956 Rank Acting Torpedo Officer, Fremantle Chief Demolition Officer Battles/wars World War I World War II

Note, for example, Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in 'pledging allegiance'. Not only that, but we have persons like William Seegers who only served tepidly/because they had to. 'Nationality' is less POV; it is simply a descriptor.Ryoung122 23:02, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I commented on this on Harry Richard Landis' talk page. I provided a link there where you can bring your case and a rationale as to why I reverted your change for now. Cheers, CP 16:09, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Last age-group of Service

Hello!
I think we should collect the last age-groups that where drafted. Today I've got a email from the "BUNDESARCHIV - Militärarchiv -" (german national archiv section military) in which is written: "Der Jahrgang 1900 wurde noch bis Herbst 1918 eingezogen." (The age-group 1900 was drafted until autumn 1918.)
A a bad news: "Die Personalunterlagen der Preußischen Armee wurden 1945 vernichtet. Ausschließlich für Angehörige der Badischen, Württembergischen, Sächsischen und Bayerischen Truppen sind die jeweiligen Landesarchive in Karlsruhe, Stuttgart, Dresden und München zuständig; auch hier ist jedoch mit Verlusten zu rechnen." (The data of the prussian army are destroy in 1945...) Statistician 15:07, 12 September 2007 (CET)

Know I have an answer from the "Österreichisches Staatsarchiv - Kriegsarchiv" (austrian national archiv - military archiv):
"Im Erster Weltkrieg wurden die Geburtsjahrgänge 1865-1900 eingezogen. Darüber hinaus gab es ganz wenige Soldaten des Geburtsjahrganges 1901." (During WW I the age-groups 1865-1900 were drafted. Plus a very little number of solders of the age-group 1901.)
Statistician 15:04, 18 September 2007 (CET)

Dr. Anton Bodhal (again)

Sources close to Dr. Anton Bohdal´s family confirm he is a World War I veteran. He served in a supplies unit from his graduation in May 1918 until November 1918. This is confirmed by "Österreichisches Staatsarchiv - Kriegsarchiv" (austrian national archiv - military archiv) which states that men born in 1900 were drafted. (unsigned comment)

Ok, if this is true, then e-mail me copies of the records:

robertdouglasyoung@yahoo.com

Or you can choose another expert. But don't simply add unsourced, anonymous IP edits.Ryoung122 23:10, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

It woul be nice if the person that confirm the claim would they who he is. And by the way: Some man were not drafted - we call that "ausgemustert". ;)
If it can be confirmed that he ist one this would be great.
Btw.: Of our 4 know man born 1900 and living in germany we know that only one served - the other 3 didn't (it's confirmed). And there ist still ist austrian man born in 1899 we don't know the name... Statistician 27.09.2007 0:02 (CET) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.165.235.203 (talk) 22:02, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

French update

Greetings,

The Sept 25 2007 list of French persons aged 108+ still had the anonymous WWI veteran on the list, indicating that he is probably still alive. Ryoung122 23:09, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Birthday updates

Is there for all veterans born in September a sign that they are live a.ka. celebrated their birthday? Statistician 27.09.2007 0:04 (CET) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.165.235.203 (talk) 22:04, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Morning All, we know that Russell Coffey is still alive - see the note above. I haven't been able to find anything for Sydney Lucas's 107th birthday. But I did find this for Bill Stone, from a couple of weeks before his birthday. http://www.henleystandard.co.uk/districtarchives/archivewat.php it's a meeting up of all 3 surviving vets in the UK with a picture - it is well worth a look! Sadly the page will be deleted in February 08 SRwiki 07:56, 27 September 200 ____________________________- I received a note from the daughter of William Stone - He was alive as of Sept. 27th. (PershinBoy)

Dan Keating 1902-2007

Does anyone think he should be listed as a 'WWI-era' veteran? Comments welcome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Keating

Ryoung122 16:55, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

i was for dan keating being put in era veterans a couple of times and it was a no why now hes dead should there be more reason to put him in there? Webbmyster 17:10, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I was only reading about him a few days ago. What with Keating and Bohdahl, I'm going to suggest another name from the past. Boris Efimov's Wikipedia article says that he was drafted by the Red Army in Kiev during the October Revolution. If this is verifiable then it would make him an era-vet. From Statistician's information it looks like Georg Thalhofer does not count though, since only one of four German's born in 1900 served, and that was Erich Kastner. 89.240.95.231 19:36, 4 October 2007 (UTC)Captain celery

Morning All, when Boris Efimov first appeared as a candidate, I did a little digging around, and came up with the following (I have fished this out of the Archive)

His Wiki bio as at 2 march 2007 read:

"During the First World War, his family fled the advancing German armies and returned to Kiev, where he pursued legal studies, only to be interrupted by the October Revolution and subsequent turmoil. He began to express his emotions through caricatures of politicians, the first of which were published in 1919 and circulated in the Kievian Red Army." There is a big difference between fought with his family and fled with his family"

Another quote from a Russian biography (http://www.peoples.ru/art/painter/efimov_b/): "Boris returned to Kiev, completed training in real school, and in 1917 enrolled at the Kiev Institute of National Economy. But completing there for a year, he moved to the Faculty of the University of Kiev.

In interviews with the man himself he makes no mention of his possible war service.

I also don't think that the war service of such a notable person would have gone unnoticed all this time.

In short: he makes no claim, and no biography of him makes a claim either.

Thoughts anyone? SRwiki 08:09, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

The line about bing drafted into the Kievian Red Army now in his wiki bio was added anonymously and without citation on 10th March 07. His Russian Biography covers what he was doing for the period in question, without any mention of military service. I am not saying this is conclusive, but without any evidence to back up the KRA claim, I don't think we can accept it. SRwiki 08:05, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Hello!
1. I think he should count as a era veteran. Until wich date wi count someone as a era-veteran?
2. " From Statistician's information it looks like Georg Thalhofer does not count though, since only one of four German's born in 1900 served, and that was Erich Kastner." Erick Kästner (or Kaester if you haven't a ä-key) please. ;)
Georg Thalhofer wasn't in the health condition to serve. Erich Kästner (bon March 1900) served since July 1918. The other to livin german male were born in November and December 1900, so I think they were to young join the army - both weren't 18 years old when the war ended!
Statistician, 11:17 (CET) 05.11.2007

Yes, but William Seegers wasn't 18 years old, and he was drafted in June 1918 (born Oct 1900). Note we've also heard that those 17 and older were eligible for the draft. So, I do recommend checking again with some of the youngest German cases (born late 1900/early 1901). Note we have Italian, US, British vets from this time period...why not German as well?Ryoung122 08:58, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

• In my view the Anglo-Irish insurrection has little to do with being a related conflict. The war prevented the third home rule act from being implemented, and compulsory conscription of the Irish fanned the flames, but it has nothing to do with WWI per-se or the consequences of it. It isn't Finland or the October revolution. It's contemporaneous at best. RichyBoy 09:36, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

SRwiki: I knew there had been an oversight, but it looks like it was Efimov's article, rather than our page, which was incorrect.

Statistician: The guidelines for era-vets are on the main page. It's not just about date, but the Treaty of Versailles is one cut off point. And yes I do tend to leave out umlauts, but you left out the 'n'.

RichyBoy: We have Veysel Turan listed, so what about the Turkish War of Independence? 89.242.118.250 19:17, 5 October 2007 (UTC)Captain celery

Months without reproted death of a WWI-Veteran

After May 2006 and August 2007 September 2007 seems to be the third month without a reported death of a WWI-Veteran. I hope more will follow as long as we have some WWI-veterans.
Statistician, 11:23 (CET) 05.10.2007

An era veteran died August 2007... Statistician, 02:45 (CET) 07.10.2007

Orin Peterson death

According to the latest SSDI update, Orin M. Peterson died on August 24th 2007 in Spokane. His birthdate is listed as Febr. 27th 1900. http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&gsfn=&gsln=&=&f9=27&f8=Feb&f10=1900&f6=24&f5=Aug&f7=2007&f1=&f15=&f14=&f13=&f12=&f20=&f0=&prox=1&db=ssdi&ti=0&ti.si=0&gl=&gss=rfs&gst=&so=3 I have not been able to find an obituray for him, anyone else? Sincerely, TB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.60.105.198 (talk) 18:08, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

No, but Justin Poor's death wasn't reported either. Excellent work there, even if it is sad to see another one go. Richard J —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.151.52.172 (talk) 19:06, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

It would be interesting to see what obituaries said about his veteran status, since Wikipedia and Ders des Ders differ on this. 89.242.118.250 19:17, 5 October 2007 (UTC)Captain celery

Greetings,

I found an obituary:

PETERSON, Orin Manford "Pete" (Age 107)

Passed away August 24, 2007 in Spokane, WA. Orin Manford Peterson, known by many simply as 'Pete' was born in Black River Falls, Wisconsin on February 27, 1900 to Anton and Inger Peterson. He was the fifth of 10 children in his family with five brothers and four sisters. The family migrated west to Montana when he was a young teenager. There he was confirmed in the Lutheran Church in Norwegian. Growing up, he became an expert horseman and at age 18 enlisted in the Army and served in the Cavalry for two years. Upon his discharge he worked at various jobs setting a pattern that he followed most of his life. In the early 1920's he and a younger brother drove to Spokane in a Model T Ford when the roads were very poor and sometimes were no more than wagon trails. He located a house for his parents in Spokane and soon most of the Peterson family moved to the area. While still in his twenties, he accompanied a friend on a trip to California and discovered the state that he would call home for almost the rest of his life. In 1942 he was drafted into the Army again but served only about six months because the Army lowered the age limit for enlisted men and he was discharged. In civilian life he worked at many and various jobs always moving on looking for the next adventure. His longest business endeavor was operating a chicken ranch in Sacramento which produced about 2000 eggs a day. When he retired from chicken ranching, he made Sacramento his home but for many years wintered in Yuma, Arizona. Orin never married but was very involved in raising and caring for Carol Herman, the deaf daughter of friends. He regarded her as his own daughter and treated her as such until her death in 2001. In his retirement years he enjoyed a carefree life of traveling with his trailer and fishing wherever he could. Orin returned to Spokane in 1998 to be near the rest of his family which consists of numerous nephews and nieces. Orin outlived all of his brothers and sisters and was loved and will be missed by everyone who knew him. The family would also like to express heart felt thanks to the administration and staff at the Spokane Veterans Home for the loving care that was given to 'Pete' in his last years. Visitation will be Thursday from noon to 8 PM at HAZEN & JAEGER FUNERAL HOME, 1306 N. MONROE ST. Funeral Services will be at 1 PM on Friday, August 31, 2007 in the Sunset Chapel at Fairmount Memorial Park, 5200 W. Wellesley in Spokane.

This does nothing to clarify whether he was or was not a WWI veteran. If he were born in Feb 1900 and joined at '18' then he could very well have been a veteran. Perhaps the family didn't want to be bothered?Ryoung122 09:04, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Proof of WWII service:

Name: Orin M Peterson Birth Year: 1900 Race: White, citizen (White) Nativity State or Country: Wisconsin State: California County or City: Sacramento

Enlistment Date: 30 Sep 1942 Enlistment State: California Enlistment City: Sacramento Branch: Branch Immaterial - Warrant Officers, USA Branch Code: Branch Immaterial - Warrant Officers, USA Grade: Private Grade Code: Private Term of Enlistment: Enlistment for the duration of the War or other emergency, plus six months, subject to the discretion of the President or otherwise according to law Component: Selectees (Enlisted Men) Source: Enlisted Man, Regular Army, after 3 months of Discharge

Education: Grammar school Marital Status: Single, without dependents Height: 66 Weight: 138

Ryoung122 09:08, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Justin Tuveri death

http://it.notizie.yahoo.com/adnkxml/20071006/tit-sardegna-morto-a-109-anni-ultimo-sol-afde0ec_1.html Ryoung122 22:24, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

After months with nothing, part of me was 'hoping' for some 'action'. But when you're scrolling down to see who's died it is sad, even though he was 109 and I didn't know him. I believe he was the longest serving vet. England now lead with 6, but only 3 saw action as for France, so Italy still leads there with 5.

Putting my cynical hat on, this is a bit better for Italy and France in terms of the last veteran thing although there is still Ponticelli. It would be hard not to count him as French but he did serve for both. And they still have the rods for their own backs of the 3 and 6 month criterions, but it's not as important for Italy since they're not having a state funeral. 89.240.90.98 01:03, 7 October 2007 (UTC)Captain celery

Hmmm.. a brave man dies & the first contributor compares it to being sexually frustrated (in VERY poor taste, IMHO, the 2nd says it is almost a good thing. Blimey! For what it's worth, RIP. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.151.52.172 (talk) 08:45, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree, that was rather tasteless. it's not a contest.Czolgolz 15:26, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

In fact those comments were both by myself. You say he was brave, but it's also stupid to put your life on the line in a war which, like most, was honourless and fought for rich people. But since he was drafted, I assume he was forced to serve, so perhaps he was neither brave nor stupid. He served for a year which does indicate bravery, but maybe he tried to desert like William Seegers. I don't know. I certainly wouldn't look down on anyone who did, but presumably you would. It also suggests that he had survival instincts, but then those who didn't are long dead, and I don't look down on them either.

If you want to interpret my remarks as a reference to sexual frustration, then that's your problem. I had no such intention. The scare quotes were to indicate ambiguity, not euphemism. I was just admitting that this page had been a bit boring over the last few months. Am I proud of that? No. But it is the truth. I'm not wishing for them to die, and even if I was, it's not going to make it happen. But what do you think this page is for? They're not going to live forever. And no, RIP is not worth anything. He's not resting and it's not peace. It isn't anything.

And I was only pointing out that France would probably like Louis de Cazenave to have the state funeral, without an Italian veteran (or for that matter the unlisted Raymond Cambefort) still living in the country. That's why I said I had my cynical hat on. Further proof, I think, that you really can't put anything on these pages without being horribly flamed by the pedantics or, in this case, the politically correct. Those seem to be the contests around here. A 109 year old man, who we didn't know, has died. It happens. Don't be so sanctimonious about it. I don't pretend to be upset. A moment of quiet contemplation is quite enough grief for me. 80.2.16.73 22:56, 8 October 2007 (UTC)Captain celery

Boris Efimov

I read that someone wrote that Boris Efimov was drafted into the Kiev Red Army during the October Revolution. If this really is true then he was or is (Don't know if he's still alive) a World War 1 Veteran since the October Revolution was before the signing of the Brest-Litovsk Treaty which oficially ended Russia's participation in WW1. Only if he or anyone else were drafted into the Russian Army after March 5th, 1918 should they be classified as WW1 era. As for the belief that the Bolsheviks immediately ceased hostilities with the Central Powers upon seizing control I will remark that a cease-fire must be a two way street. The Germans, Austro-Hungarians, and to a lesser extent Ottomans continued their military movements against Russia after the October Revolution; determined to take the Ukraine with it's vast farmland to feed their troops. In fact, the Germans demanded so much territory from Russia that some of the Bolshevik leadership began to favor resuming hostilities with what little military power they still had at their disposal. Only after Lenin promised Leon Trotsky the position of Commisar of War for the impending civil war against the counter-revolutionary white armies did Trotsky and some of the others in the Bolshevik high command agree to accept the German territorial demands. Of course all of this depends on whether or not Boris Efimov really was in the military at all. With 12,000,000 Russians mobilized for WW1 and no doubt millions more for the chaos following the revolutions (February and October) as well as the 1920 war with Poland it would seem that some Russian veterans from that time period would still be alive; inspite of Russia's and other ex-Soviet Republics comparatively low life expectancies. JeepAssembler 18:11, 7 October 2007

Boris Efimov is not an easy case. We discussed this case often before (see archives) and we don't find a claim in newspapers and thinks like that. When I'm remembering correctly he fleed with his family for the red army.
Statistician, 09:18 (CET) 08.10.2007 —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 07:18, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Morning All, I have just been digging round looking for Info on the Kievian Red Army, and apart from articles quoting the line from Boris Efimov's wiki page I can't find anything - I am starting to wonder if this military force ever existed as a seperate organisation from the Red Army. Does any contributor know anything about the KRA. The other thought that has occured to me is whether the "Kievian Red Army" might have been an army magazine, which would make more sense of the "cirulated in the Kievian Red Army" line, just a thought. SRwiki 08:47, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Nations with no living WW1 Veterans as of January 1st, 1999?

Almost three months ago I made several posts on this page about how there should have been several thousand more names of WW1 Vets whom had died since Jan. 1st, 1999 than are actually on the lists. One of the replies which I got stated that some of the nations involved in WW1 officially claimed to have had no veterans left over from that conflict still alive by 1999. I would like to know which nations those would be. I have some ideas: Montenegro (which was so tiny it could only mobilize 50,000 troops and which entered the war at the very beginning so it's troops would have been a bit older on average than those from nations which entered the war later). Liberia and Panama (both of which were similarly dimunitive and only entered after the U.S.A. did, probably to assist in the shipping of American equipment). If I remember correctly Guatemala, Cuba, and Uruguay also declared war on Germany after the U.S.A. did; but I can't imagine any of them having been able to mobilize enough troops to ensure a realistic probability of any still being alive at the end of the 20th century. I would appreciate a response as I am very curious about this subject. Thanks. JeepAssembler 05:48, 14 October 2007 (UTC) I just looked on the "Last Surviving WW1 Veterans" link and noticed that Algeria (then a colony of France) and Senegal (not sure who it was ruled by, I think France) had their last vets die in 1998. I am curious if there are any more such countries? JeepAssembler 05:33, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

A special thanks

I would like to thank whoever discovered the additional 32 Italian World War 1 Veterans who died in 2004. While it is probably impossible to know every WW1 Vet who died on or after January 1st, 1999; getting the lists as complete as possible form 2004 or 2005 onwards (at which time national media's began covering the subject) will allow the use of mathematical models for yearly mortality rates to be applied so one can "work backward" and reasonably estimate how many would still have been alive at a particular date. I am beginning to think that only about 6,000 total from around the world were still alive on Jan. 1st, 1999; not 10,000 as I had previously estimated. JeepAssembler 06:01, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

A long-shot idea

I wonder if it would be possible to get a list of the 20 oldest men living in Japan at the beginning of 2005 and cross referencing their names for military service during World War 1. JeepAssembler 06:10, 14 October 2007 (UTC) I read that it might not be possible to get information on Japanese Vets since none appeared on French soil; so I think that age cross-referencing would be the best path. JeepAssembler 05:43, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Last age group of service

In April, 2006 I read a tablulation from the U.S.A. Veterans Administration on surviving veterans of wars (Spanish-American through Korea) through the month of July, 1959. It stated that only 71,000 of the 2,778,000 then estimated living U.S. WW1 veterans were between 50 and 59 years old. An age of 59 years and 11 months in July, 1959 would yield a birth month of August, 1899. That was only 2.6% of the total; I don't know about the percentages in european nations but it seems as if a very small portion of World War One service personnel were born in 1900 or later. Maybe there simply aren't any more still alive to be discovered. JeepAssembler 00:52, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Bernard Delaire

28 march 1899-1 october 2007 http://www.letelegramme.com/gratuit/generales/regions/cotesarmor/bernard-delaire-le-doyen-des-bretons-decede-108-ans-20071003-1709732_1065858.php —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.4.252.143 (talk • contribs)

Could someone possibly translate the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.83.36.152 (talk) 18:47, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

What do you want to know? My france is very bad but so far as I can see there isn't a word about WWI. Statistician 22:04, 19.10.2007 (CET) —Preceding comment was added at 20:04, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

My French is a little better. The above article, and another I found (attached) indicate that he entered Brest Naval College in August 1918 where he trained as a naval officer, later serving at the bridge of a number of vessels, including submarines. He retired from the navy in 1946 and returned to teach at Brest where his pupils included a young Jacques Cousteau. This puts him in the same category as Bill Stone, Sid Lucas, Walter Heiman etc as, just, a WWI vet, still in training when the war ended.

http://www.cc-paysfouesnantais.fr/var/cc_paysfouesnantais/storage/original/application/phpwvXE6X.pdf

86.155.224.255 21:14, 19 October 2007 (UTC)Bruce

Does college count as training? Huh, huh, you said Brest. Czolgolz 22:53, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Greetings,

The above name matches the anonymous "Bernard X" listing. The original listing said that "Bernard X" was born Mar 23 1899 but a more recent list sent from my French source listed "Bernard Delaire" as born Mar 28 1899. Thus, it appears that this is the same person. I suggest we add "Bernard Delaire" to the 2007 deaths and delete "Bernard X" from this page.

Also, if someone were to be at Annapolis Naval Academy would you ask that question?Ryoung122 23:01, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Remember that, originally, Mr. Laurent Toussaint of France had located two 'new' French WWI veterans, Rene Riffaud and Francois Jaffre. The French government 'took credit' for the find and failed to give credit where credit was due. In response, Mr. Toussaint decided to 'hold back' on the remaining cases he had, including Louis Lagaurnadie, Raymond Guay, and Bernard Delaire. He indicated to me a plan to 'announce' a 'surviving French WWI veteran' after the French authorities had announced the death of the 'last' veteran. However, it seems that plan didn't work, as Louis de Cazenave and Lazare Ponticelli have been holding on for quite some time. Further muddling the picture was the discovery of Raymond Cambefort (which the media spilled the beans on, so to speak). However, with the deaths of Lagaurnadie in 2006, Guay in Jan 2007, Justin Tuveri (Italian veteran living in France) this month and Bernard 'X' as well, the picture is now much clearer for France: we have three known veterans left. If there is anyone else, I do not know of them. (However, I am told there is one anonymous U.S. veteran left).Ryoung122 23:09, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

___________________________________________ I wonder if the anonymous U.S. Veteran was Orin Peterson who died this month. I received a letter from his Nephew last year, stating he joined after the war, but it seems that he was drafted in Sept 1918. Perhaps the family did not wish to have media coverage. (PershinBoy)209.244.188.174 06:00, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

The thought has crossed my mind. I'll have to ask my source if his 'anonymous vet' is still living or no.Ryoung122 07:49, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

The Laurent Toussaint story makes me think that I was quite right to put my cynical hat on after Tuveri's death. Also, if you pardon the expression, it looks like the floodgates have opened, with Delaire and Peterson looking like being posthumously recognised as vets. If Peterson was the anonymous American it would explain his nephew contradicting the documentary evidence accepted by Ders des Ders. I always felt we should have accepted it too, because the case was the opposite of Robley Rex, with the truth being downplayed rather than exaggerated. There is still the anonymous Austrian vet though, according to Statistician.

I've actually been to Brest. It's like a poor man's San Francisco (not that I've been there), with streets sloping down towards the bay. And they have very nice crepes. I wonder about the Jacques Cousteau story like Jeanne Calment meeting Van Gogh and Louis Armstrong playing on George Francis' porch. But since Mr X was adverse to publicity, it's probably true. And if service is validated, just as with age, we can allow some embellishment. Captain celery 20:45, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I for one don't have any doubt that Jeanne Calment met Van Gogh. The story is documentable and not particularly unbelievable, either. Often, we think too much of 'celebrity.' Hey, I've seen lots of celebrities, often by accident. I saw Senator Max Cleland on the streets of Atlanta. I've waited tables for Jeff Foxworthy and Brett Butler and Chris Chandler and seen Tom Glavine at the same restaurant. This is, of course, different from meeting governor Roy Barnes (an intentional meeting) or governor Mitch Daniels. Those were scheduled meetings. But often in life, our paths incidentally cross with other 'noted' persons. Hey, everybody is somebody. Jeanne lived in Arles; Van Gogh lived in Arles.Ryoung122 11:51, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Well yes, of course celebrities are just normal people, and Van Gogh wasn't noted when he was alive. Perhaps she met Gaugin too, but then he wasn't so 'distinctive'. Captain celery 20:05, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I didn't realise he was titled as a Doctor. That would have made 3 out of the last 25 veterans or so titled. Even though one is aware that an active mind will stave off certain illnesses in later life it's still makes the mind boggle, I would have thought luck would be far more determinate in who gets to live a long time. RichyBoy 23:53, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

• On another note my Indian contact has made enquiries to the military and will receive a formal answer - he just doesn't know when. I don't think anyone has been alive for a quite a number of years now but it will be nice to find out excactly who the last Indian vet was. RichyBoy 23:53, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

"There is still the anonymous Austrian vet though, according to Statistician."
I didmn't say that. The oldest austrian man (born 1899) can be one if he's still alive but I don't know his name and there wasn't a service-claim. Dr. Anton Bodhal see above.
Statistician 14:22, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes I realised afterwards that you meant there could be another vet, rather than that there definitely was. The lack of claim doesn't necessarily count against him as we're talking about anonymous candidates and he might not want his age or service to gain him publicity. Because he's unidentified it might be more difficult to find out when he dies, but then we heard about Bernard Delaire and eventually Orin Peterson. You'd know better than me how likely a man of his age is to have served. Captain celery 21:04, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

So was Orin Peterson the "anonymous" American, who did serve before the Armistice after all then? Extremely sexy 18:20, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Still not known? Extremely sexy 23:21, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I assumed that your original question was directed towards Robert, since it's his source. I included Peterson with Delaire because it would tie up the loose end very nicely if he was the anonymous one. But I don't know. Robert commented on a topic below that there was probably another French vet but was unsure about the US. So perhaps he didn't get an answer yet, or at least not unambiguously. Captain celery 23:41, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

M'Lthiria Mukaria

Just curious; Has anyone found out anything about the supposed 114 year old M'Lthiria Mukaria from Kenya and supposedly in the King's African Rifles talked about almost two months ago?JeepAssembler 20:46, 28 October 2007 (UTC)JeepAssemblerJeepAssembler 20:46, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I exchanged emails with the editor of the King's African Rifles Regimental Association website where I found reference to M'Lthiria Mukaria at the end of August. I have heard nothing since but have emailed him again requesting more information.

The War Office: Service Medal and Award Rolls Index, First World War in the British National Archive does not list any M'Lthiria Mukaria but does show that a Private Mukeria (NB slightly different spelling) served in the King's African Rifles in WWI. There is no indication at this stage that this is the same individual however.

If I receive any news I'll let you know.217.42.89.128 22:03, 29 October 2007 (UTC)Bruce

Henry Allingham breaks UK record

Greetings, On Nov 1 2007 Henry Allingham broke the record for the oldest man to serve in the British forces. The record of 111 years 146 days had been held by the last Boer War veteran since 1993 or earlier. George Ives died in Canada. Ryoung122 17:47, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Considering the way he still manages to get around; I think living to his 112th birthday is very probable. JeepAssembler 18:11, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I want to see him become the oldest man on earth with Tomaji Tanabe's passing. ''[[User:Kitia|Kitia'']] 22:39, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Uh, should we really be wishing for the deaths of others? and Tanabe appears to be in great shape, I wouldn't hold my breath. Ryoung122 05:16, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Does anybody know off-hand if Allingham/Patch/Stone are going to march past the cenotaph on November 11? (Obviously not actually marching, it's what the military call it). When I watched last year the commentator said it was the first time ever that no WWI veteran has marched past, but I would quite like to see one of them march by one more time - ill-health/death could very easily rob us of any future parades and touch-wood, the three veterans appear to have sufficient health to attend this year. RichyBoy 00:34, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

_________________________ Wow. Hats off to these 22 remaining vets. The numbers have slowed down, as I believe Mr. Young or someone mentioned they would. In the early part of the year we were losing close to one every ten days. In March, I predicted only 15 to 18 would make it into 2008. Hope this trend keeps up a while, and I certainly hope I am wrong about 15 to 18. Perhaps Mr. Stone will be able to march past the cenotaph on Nov. 11, As I think he broke his hip the month before last years Nov. 11th, and is doing better from a letter I received - Can you imagine being 105+ and recover from a broken hip. What a guy. These fellows (and lady) must be tough cookies! (PershinBoy) 209.244.188.174 05:36, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I said they would, for two reasons:

A. The deaths had been at a pace that was 'greater than expected' according to statistics. Therefore, the most likely event is a slowdown.

B. When the number surviving gets below about 30, there emerges a 'survivor-curve' or 'Gompertz tail.' We see that with the oldest-oldest: age 114 sees lots a deaths, but no one died at 118 at all (Sarah Knauss and Jeanne Calment both made it to 119 and 122, having gone through age 118).

That said, I highly doubt all 22 will make it to 2008. Perhaps 18 to 20. But remember, there still might be a few more cases to emerge (such as Bernard Delaire). My sources tell me there's one anonymous vet left in France (almost certain...they've always been right). The US report is less reliable, so no bets there. Ryoung122 10:08, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Very good article including a recent interview on Henry Allingham in the UK Sunday newspaper "The Independent on Sunday", for Sunday 4th Nov 2007. It is on their website, independent co uk, and can be accessed via their in-page search engine. Sorry if this post is in breach of any guidelines, as I am a Wiki novice, but thought it was such a good article I should flag it up. The Eye Of Sauron 06:30, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

No: that's allowed, and thank you. Extremely sexy 15:16, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

You can find it over here in fact. Extremely sexy 15:24, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for posting the link E.S.: it's a very moving article. The Eye Of Sauron 20:57, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

It's my pleasure though and it definitely is. Extremely sexy 21:01, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Finnish Vet

So did that Finnish guy die? He needs to be placed in the 2007 deaths section. Czolgolz 00:10, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I've reverted those edits until we get a source. David Underdown 09:52, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Morning All if you look at this, http://www.uusisuomi.fi/kotimaa/3944-viimeinen-vapaussoturi-lennart-ronnback-kuoli-102-vuotiaana it looks like an obituary, and having run it through a translator programme, it comes out pretty garbled, but appears to give a date of 4th Nov. Just thought some-one else should have a look before I make any changes. Thanks SRwiki 10:06, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Probably right - anyone know a Finnish speaker on en.wikipedia? David Underdown 11:21, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I know someone who is a finn - should I ask him?
I'm not online until sundy night.
Statistician 01:44, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Definitely. Sunday should be pretty busy here, what with it being the 11th of the 11th. Captain celery 01:59, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

As my finish contact said 04.11.2007 als day of his death ist correct. The articels says also that he was the last white guard.
Statistician (talk) 19:14, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

The Final Few on BBC website

Morning All, just thought you would like to know that the BBC has had a series of short interviews with 5 of the surviving UK vets (no Glady Powers I'm afraid) running this week with the last one tonight, if you dig round on BBC.co.uk you can find them there. SRwiki 09:51, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Here's the link. Thanks for pointing this out! Cheers, CP 16:51, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Are the Oldest-Old or Final Few notable?

Greetings, User Brown-Haired Girl has waged a campaign to wipe out the entire 'supercentenarians' field on Wikipedia. This has included:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_November_1#Category:Supercentenarian_trackers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Robert_Young_%28longevity_claims_researcher%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Epstein_%28supercentenarian_tracker%29

And, even, a man dead over 100 years:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Thoms

I find it incredulous that one would attack even the man who invented the term 'folklore' and started the field of 'supercentenarian tracking.'

Such mass hysteria seems to be working. User BHG is one of the top-10 editors by edit count on Wikipedia and has lots of friends. I can't imagine most WWI veteran articles surviving if this trend continues. I do urge everyone who considers tracking the oldest-old, whether WWI vets or no, to chime in on these debates.

Sincerely, Robert Young Ryoung122 16:42, 9 November 2007 (UTC) ___________________________________________ Some of us have had different opinions, and perhaps even tempers have flared at times, and users on this site have not agreed on some things, including myself. Perhaps a difference of opinion has made this site on WWI vets, and the listing of supercentenarian's such a great site. However, I think the sites mentioned above are very important, and without question should be kept. Speaking for myself, you have my full support. Let me know if there is anything we can do to keep these sites. (PershinBoy)209.244.188.174 21:39, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

So, Robert, I take it you asked all of them yourself, right? Extremely sexy 23:29, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, that's wikipedia and over-zealous editors for you. They always believe they are right because they know all of the rules, they make up the rules between themselves anyway and often apply the 'rules' as the means to the end (rather than use them as how they were intended, to provide guidelines and help). They also believe they are always doing the right thing for wikipedia and that they do everything in good faith. I think they have difficulty in understanding that making a AfD request is tantamount to votestacking from the get go, do they not realise that being an admin with a high edit count means lots of people will read their logs/personal pages and go on vote on matters, social networking happens whether or not you actively canvass for it. This is why you shouldn't take things to personally on the wiki or even bother heavily contributing; there are just too many people out there (and I'm not saying they realise it) that 'damage' the content on wikipedia by hiding behind the rules, even though they mean well. This is why I contribute little to wiki - there just isn't much point when it contains worthless pap like lists of places from a Tolkein book but you have to fight tooth-and-nail for genuine encyclopedic content of interest such as cases around the longevity of the human species. GL, but you will probably have to live with being merged. RichyBoy 04:02, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Merging isn't the end of the world, but they like to say DELETE and rub it in. Then they post messages to their friends (canvassing) to notify that 'user X' is 'canvassing' (very hypocrital). I feel like Mel Gibson in Braveheart. So, I go to the execution/torture table and remember the line: FREEDOM is more important than kissing the (behind) of the powers that be.Ryoung122 09:18, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

P.S. Articles like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_destinations_served_by_Manchester_Airport_Terminal_3

Are really quite irritating. I thought Wikipedia is 'not a directory'? That looks like a directory of non-notable information to me.Ryoung122 09:18, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

If There are Really Anymore Still Alive

I think that if there are really anymore undiscovered WW1 and WW1 era vets they would most likely be from the Russian and Austro-Hungarian armed forces; since both of those empires mobilized huge forces and seem to be under-represented on the survivors and deaths pages. Also, both had constituent parts involved in wars shortly after the armistice; Hungary vs. Czechoslovakia and Romania in 1919 and Russia against Poland in 1920; furthermore, Russia had a Civil War and uprisings between 1918 and 1921. I know that the territories comprising these former empires are not noted for longevity and that they were devastated in WW2 and also between the World War's (especiaaly in the case of the U.S.S.R., with forced industrialization and colllectivization of agriculture). Nonetheless, the Russian and Austro-Hungarian empires and their successor states between them mobilized about 25,000,000 troops between 1914 and 1921. And perhaps most importantly, what were only two countries at the beginning of 1917 had become twenty-five with the break-ups of the Soviet Union, northern Yugoslavia, and Czechoslovakia in the early 1990's; meaning that plenty of records could have been lost or destroyed.JeepAssembler 19:55, 10 November 2007 (UTC)JeepAssemblerJeepAssembler 19:55, 10 November 2007 (UTC) JeepAssembler 19:55, 10 November 2007 (UTC)JeepAssemblerJeepAssembler 19:55, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

As for other participants, the western european allies, Canada and Australia seem to be completely tallied (although I did see mentioned a still anonymous Frenchman) while the "third world" probably either contributed too few troops or has to low life expectancy to have any still alive. You never know, though; while life expectancy is longer in richer countries than poorer ones, longevity might not be. As a perfect example consider the two longest lived vets: Emiliano Mercado Del Toro was from Puerto Rico and Moses Hardy from Mississippi (the poorest state in the U.S.) and was the son of slaves.JeepAssembler 19:55, 10 November 2007 (UTC)JeepAssemblerJeepAssembler 19:55, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

That leaves the U.S.A., Japan, and Germany to discuss: The news media has been going across the U.S.A. with a fine-toothed comb looking for surviving vets ever since Alfred Pugh (the last American officially wounded in WW1) died in January, 2004 and haven't found any since Harry Landis in Dec., 2006. However, there are dozens of men Frank Buckles' age or older and hundreds Floyd Matthews' age or older in the U.S.; so while there don't seem to be any more Americans, with odds like that it certainly can't be ruled out. For Japan the war was strictly a land grab opportunity; seizing Germany's far eastern holdings in 1914 and intervening in Siberia in 1918 (ostensibly to help the Czechoslovak Legion control the Trans-Siberian so they could reopen the eastern front, territorial expansion was Japan's true aim though). Japanese troops occupied the city of Vladivostok until 1922. While Japan mobilized fewer than one million troops for the war and it's aftermath, that is still more than Canada. They probably don't have any left, but with their reputation for longevity it shouldn't be ruled out. As for Germany, disappointment; with it's huge mobilization and high life expectancy one might expect more. But I read that there are no men living in Germany born before 1900.JeepAssembler 19:55, 10 November 2007 (UTC)JeepAssemblerJeepAssembler 19:55, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Personally I would think the best chance is from the USA still. Record keeping was incomplete regarding the third draft, and it has been demonstrated with others that a true veteran may wish to remain anonymous. There still could be someone out there not claiming their veterans pension, the US government figures come from that list. Also, a lot of very small countries declared war but their mobilisation was generally 0, it was economic aid or the use of port facilities which contributed to the war effort. More often than not a national would join up to an overseas force instead. It's tempting to say Russia should have some more but I wouldn't be suprised if they don't - the revolution, Stalin, the severity of WW2 losses through operation Barbarossa. With language issues it's likely we'd only know after their death anyway - ders des ders did discover Yakup Satar though, to prove that language is a difficulty for this list. RichyBoy 10:52, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Happy Armistice Day!

Hard to believe that 89 years after the end of the war, there's still combat veterans alive. Czolgolz 21:25, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Russian Veterans

There has been much discussion on the lack of information on Russian WWI veterans and their relative under-representation on these pages. Until, possibly, now. The Russian website Pobediteli [3] gives the names and birthdates of the 1,054,940 Russian WWII veterans known to be alive as of 2005. There are a number of individuals amongst them old enough to have served in WWI or a related WWI 'era' conflict:

Name	Given Birthdate
Nuris Sandrievich Abdullin (Moscow)	1 Dec 19001
Izmitdin Abduragimovich Abduragimov (Daghestan)	1 Dec 19001 2
Georgii Stepanovich Ananchenkov (Moscow)	1 Jan 19001
Valentin Alekseevich Andreenko (Moscow Region)	5 Jan 1900
Izi Ataev (Daghestan)	1 Jul 19001 2
Dmitrii Parmenovich Balzamov (Moscow)	28 Nov 1900
Petr Romanovich Belokopytov (St Petersburg)	31 Dec 1897
Dmitrii Vladimirovich Boiko (Krasnodar)	14 Feb 1899
Mihail Yakovlevich Chumakov (Moscow)	5 Nov 1900
Abdurahman Dalgatov (Daghestan)	1 Jul 19001 2
Anatolii Vasilevich Davydov (Moscow)	1 Jan 19001
Aleksandr Evgenevich Dikarev (Moscow)	1 Jan 19001
Mazan Yusufovich Etcheev (Kabard-Balkaria)	1 Jul 19001
Adam Prokofevich Gromik (Irkutsk)	16 Feb 1900
Ivan Sergeevich Harchenko (Stavropol)	1 Jan 19001
Emirhan Ilyasov (Daghestan)	6 May 19002
Aleksandr Egorovich Kamynin (Moscow)	1 Jan 19001
Aleksei Semenovich Kirillov (Moscow Region)	19 Jan 1900
Mihail Semenovich Kolesnikov (Moscow Region)	1 Jan 19001
Nikolai Stepanovich Kosulnikov (St Petersburg)	6 Dec 1898
Nikolai Timofeevich Kovalev (Moscow Region)	1 Jul 19001
Aleksandr Mihailovich Krivshich (Moscow Region)	1 Jul 19001
Dmitrii Petrovich Kuklin (Amur)	1 Jul 19001
Yurii Vasilevich Lebedev (Moscow Region)	1 Jul 19001
Petr Yakovlevich Lelchuk (Rostov)	3 Jun 1898 (22 Jul 1898)3
Shlema Haimovich Livshits (St Petersburg)	13 Feb 18994
Matvei Gavrilovich Lukoshkin (Stavropol)	22 Aug 1900
Vasilii Andreevich Makarshin (Karelia)	15.Jul 1900
Ivan Ivanovich Moskalenko (Omsk)	4 Jun 1896
Biyatli Muradov (Daghestan)	1 Jul 18991 2
Sultan Kurgokovich Nahushev (Kabard-Balkaria)	1 Jul 19001
Anatolii Nikolaevich Ovchinnikov (Krasnoyarsk)	1 Jul 19001
Pariz Ambartsumovich Parizyan (Rostov)	15.Jul 1900
Ivan Pavlovich Pechenyi (Belgorod)	18 Jan 1900
Yurii Ivanovich Pisemskii (Rostov)	2 Jan 19001
Ignatii Fedotovich Romanenko (Gomel, Belarus)	3 Nov 1900
Valentin Vasilevich Rumyantsev (Moscow)	19 Jun 1900
Pavel Ivanovich Ryabtsev (Chelyabinsk)	19 Jun 1900
Vladimir Kuzmich Saraev (Moscow Region)	1 Jul 19001
Mihail Georgievich Shipilov (Moscow Region)	21 Nov 1900
Abu Kambotovich Shogenov (Kabard-Balkaria)	1 Jul 19001
Vasilii Petrovich Suharev (Amur)	2 Jul 19001
Arkadii Martynovich Sychev (Moscow)	28 Jan 1900
Nazhmutdin Kehursaevich Temirgareev (Daghestan)	16 Aug 18982
Lokman Tuganovich Temirliev (Karachay-Cherkessia)	1 Jul 19001
Yahya Salihovich Timov (Krasnodar)	5 May 1896
Sergo Nikolaevich Tsaryashvili (Pskov)	5 Jul 1898
Bahavdin Yunusov (Chechenia)	2 Feb 1898
Igor Ivanovich Zaitsev (Moscow)	1 Jul 18901 5

¹ These duplicate birthdates suggest that Pobediteli’s researchers were working from incomplete (military?) records. It is assumed that these men were alive on these dates rather than actually born on them.

² The comparatively high number of survivors from Daghestan indicates the possibility of ‘Longevity Claims.’ However, if military service records have been accessed why would age have been exaggerated in 1939?

³ From other online sources it is known that Petr Lelchuk served as a medic in the Russian Civil War 1918 – 1922. He was later a renowned Professor of Obstetrics and Gynaecology at the University of Rostov.

⁴ Shlema Livshits gained minor celebrity by taking US citizenship at the age of 104.

⁵ Verification of super-centenarian status, obviously, required.

Pobediteli shows a further 22 individuals born in 1901 and 31 in 1902. I can post names if anyone’s interested.

Whilst there is no indication at this stage that any of these men served in WWI there is a high probability that a proportion of them did; and given that this list is less than 3 years old it is likely that handful of them are still alive. Does anyone speak Russian or have a Russian speaking contact who might delve deeper?86.136.191.186 (talk) 00:58, 17 November 2007 (UTC)Bruce

Very interesting stuff. One reason why they might have exaggerated their ages as early as 1939 was to avoid service, but it obviously didn't work. There are some supercentenarian candidates here although none as old as Tanabe. Livshits may be easier to find since he became an American a few years ago. As for Lelchuk, a male gynaecologist is notable in itself. Captain celery (talk) 01:23, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Wasn't it suspected that Pawel Parniak exaggerated his age to avoid service in WW2?JeepAssembler (talk) 16:14, 17 November 2007 (UTC)JeepAssemblerJeepAssembler (talk) 16:14, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes that's where I got the idea from. Captain celery (talk) 00:11, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

A friend of mine had (has?) russian at scool. I can ask him if his russian ist good enough. What we want to know from wich homepage?
Statistician (talk) 19:19, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

It would be great to know if any of them are referred to in any online Russian language webpage - news reports (birthdays, deaths), biographies, obituaries etc. in order to ascertain if they served in WWI as well as WWII. If so, are any still alive? Does anyone know if Imperial Russian military service records or death records are accessible online in the same way as those for the US, Australia, UK etc? It's a very long shot indeed, I concede.

Thanks Statistician for your offer of help in this.86.129.68.251 (talk) 23:12, 19 November 2007 (UTC)Bruce

I will look what I can do but that need time...
Statistician (talk) 11:00, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Shlema Livshits died in Tennessee on 26 July 2004, unknown to Pobediteli (probably as he was resident outside Russia). However, he was apparently a veteran of the Russian Civil War and accordingly I've put him in a "WWI-era" section on the 'Died in 2004' page.86.129.64.79 (talk) 23:15, 22 November 2007 (UTC)Bruce

Stillman Munger

http://ludlowfuneralhome.com/obituary.aspx?MemberId=32652

Died on the 6th of October. Haven't added him to the deaths, because I always had my doubts about his status as an era-vet. Aarne Arvonen served whilst the War was still ongoing, Bisaro and Taggart signed up 'just after', Matthews at least got in before the TofV, and Rex is a disputed case. The only criteria for inclusion that Munger could fulfil is that he is considered a WW1 vet by government and/or press. All other era vets seem to have joined up in 1919 at the latest, but he did so in 1920 when the war was well and truly over. This seems to be reflected by the lack of coverage at his passing. It's not as if he chose to be anonymous. He had anonymity thrust upon him. Captain celery (talk) 04:02, 18 November 2007 (UTC) ___________________________________________________ I would still put him in the deceased file under WWI era. I see no problem with it. He at least saw action within 2 years. Some of the WWI Era vets have been from spin off wars anyway. If they ended up being the last, I don't think the books would consider them anyway. (PershinBoy)63.3.7.1 (talk) 03:18, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

And there I was thinking I could get my own way without a debate. But seriously, I was looking for feedback, although we differ on this. In terms of spin off wars, only Arvonen is left. With 1 older and 25 younger than him, he's not going to be the last. The 2 Finns who have died this year were also in action when WW1 was still on - literally the same era. The Turkish War at least started in 1919. Of course they shouldn't be considered vets-proper by the record books. They should have the same status as Wilfred Baker who signed up just after the Armistice. Whereas to me, Munger seems like any other old soldier.

I'm not exactly trying to set a precident. I think there would be more cases from 1920 already, except few consider that year to have much to do with WW1. I would allow Matthews, since for all he knew, the Treaty of Versailles might never have been signed and the Armistice ended. To stop it at 1918 stops genuine cases like his, and renders the term almost meaningless given the Armistice date. And since we don't always know the exact sign-up date then we could allow all 1919 cases, as has been the trend. We have to draw the line somewhere - at the end of the decade. Captain celery (talk) 18:38, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I think a reasonable argument could be made for considering as "WW1 era" any American military personnel who joined prior to the signing of the Washington Naval Treaty in 1921; as long as their date of joining is listed so as not to mix them with others.JeepAssembler (talk) 21:35, 24 November 2007 (UTC)JeepAssemblerJeepAssembler (talk) 21:35, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

But that would be applying different rules based on nationality. The fact is that anyone who signed up in 1920, or indeed the second half of 1919, was not going to be in World War I, because it was not going to resume at that stage. Captain celery (talk) 02:26, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I've never been overly happy with the inclusion of certain era-vets on this list anyway. The whole situation is muddied by which governments did what in terms of issuing campaign medals between the Armistice and the Treaty of Versailles. The USA is a funny one of those ones: they issued the victory medal only for those who had given active duty (or honourable service) between 6 April 1917 and 11 November 1918. In addition they awarded it between 12 November 1918 and 5 August 1919 for the American Expeditionary Forces serving in Eastern Russia and for those serving in Siberia it was extended to April 1st 1920. Any American serving on those fronts after June 28 1919 (ToV signing day) is clearly a WW1-Era vet as considered by their government - it was after all their government that was handing WW1 victory medals out. Anyone signing up before the ToV is by definition a WW1-Era vet, even if they had nothing to do with the war, but that's what the technicalities of the written word instead of the armistice word renders. To be honest people bending the definition of Era-vet all of the time isn't at all helpful, it's just good-natured people wanting to reward somebody for being around at that time and is still here today. The wiki portal lists civil wars as contemporaneous conflicts and I'm not sure why we should be counting people as 'era' vets when they served in contemporaneous conflicts (basically, historians don't consider them to be part of WW1 per se as they would be listed that way and not contemporaneous). All that's happened is that people have made tempting cases because one of those conflicts was closely interlinked with the war but that shouldn't have happened either. RichyBoy (talk) 02:04, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Maurice Starkey, who died 1 year ago tomorrow, signed up in July 1919, so after the ToV. It was before August 5th, but then he was in a submarine in the Atlantic, rather than anywhere near Russia. But I thought it would be unfair to remove him, just because his entry is month specific, unlike others. Munger may fit into April 1st deadline, and certainly Jeep Assembler's, but I'd just rather stop it at 1919. The ToV was finally ratified about a week into 1920 so that fits aswell. Admittedly the conflicts which Shlema Livshits and Veysal Turan were involved in went on until 1922. Captain celery (talk) 06:28, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Stanislaw Wycech & Kowalski

Interesting article giving information on his war service:

http://nz.entertainment.yahoo.com/071110/8/2dcn.html

86.129.71.142 (talk) 22:46, 18 November 2007 (UTC)Bruce

Morning all, An excellent find! I must admit I had some serious doubts about him having served in the Russian Army, and this seems to have killed off that possibility. Is anybody here in contact the Frederic Matheiu? As I wonder where he got his info from regarding Russian Service. SRwiki (talk) 09:31, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Excellent find - excellent article. Does that mean Kowalski is dead or confirmed as not being a veteran by not being mentioned in that article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.156.230.143 (talk) 22:48, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Well it is probably just about the best suggestion we have got that he didn't serve in WW1, don't think it says anything about whether he is alive or not. SRwiki (talk) 08:48, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

• It supports the fact we moved Kowalski to 'unverified' anyway - although, we probably need to discover if he is still alive as I recall he was pretty ill. RichyBoy (talk) 09:43, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Well we may not be able to use the article as proof, but it states Józef Kowalski is dead, if I'm reading it correctly. (PershinBoy)63.3.7.1 (talk) 03:21, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

He could be alive but didn't serve, dead and did serve, or dead and didn't serve. But he can't be alive and did serve. So he should be removed from the 'unverified'. Lincoln and Olin made claims which US records have not been found to support. But Kowalski was in no state to make such a claim. We thought that Polish records might support his case, but if they do, then he must have died. Captain celery (talk) 18:53, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Morning All I agree with Capt Celery, we do not actually have any umambigious article stating that he served with any side in WW1, but we do have plenty of evidence regarding his service in the Polish War of Independence. This makes him materially different from Olin & Lincoln. I for one would second moving him to the Era veterans list. On another note Kowalski is I beleive Polands Oldest Man, So I suspect his death would not go unnoticed here for very long -my hunch is that he is still with us SRwiki (talk) 08:24, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

To be honest, I had changed my mind. When it says that Wycech is the only surviving Pole, I took it to mean that he was the only remaining Pole who had served for anyone. But it's ambiguous. I suppose if Kowalski did fight for Russia or Austria-Hungary then Polish records still wouldn't indicate it. But the era list is a better place than the unverified, because he can be put into the deaths section when the time comes.

Orin Peterson was on the era list, and there's a strong suggestion that he signed up before the Armistice as Kowalski may have done. Robley Rex is also on it, but to be fair to him, the citation doesn't claim that he is a vet-proper as the notes suggest. It actually admits he served in 1919. I've seen an article claim otherwise but that seems like a misinterpretation rather than the word of the man himself. Perhaps this needs changing. Captain celery (talk) 12:42, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

So somebody removed Kowlaski and the Derby fan reinstated him (good luck against Chelsea by the way). I think this was based on my previous reasoning rather than proof of death. But unlike some of our vets, no-one would be surprised if he did die tomorrow. I'd move him to 'era' but a Jan Rzepa, who died in 2005, is listed as the last survivor of the Greater Poland Uprising on it's article. Hopefully, as with Boris Efimov, we're right, but it's worth discussing. Captain celery (talk) 03:30, 24 November 2007 (UTC) ____________________________________________________________ I am a little confused in reading the articles and the discussion page on Kowlaski and Stanislaw Wycech. If I'm understanding correctly, Kowlaski and Stanislaw Wycech could either or both now be deceased, and both of their WWI status records are in question? I also wonder, is it possible another female veteran could be out there? I understand the number of men to the ratio of woman in service during WWI. However, I have also seen the odds of woman making it past 105+ just blows away the number of men making it to that age. Comments welcome (PershinBoy)209.244.188.174 (talk) 07:00, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Wycech's service for Poland isn't in question. But Ders des Ders has him as a Russian vet aswell. That's what we're doubting, because the article doesn't mention it. But when he dies we will hear about it quickly. He's quite revered in Poland as their last vet. Kowalski is certainly unverified because of this, but could still have served for another country. And his death should be noted too, being the oldest man in Poland. Captain celery (talk) 07:18, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

One likely problem for Jozef Kowalski and many other cases from that era is that many now independent countries were under the imperial rule of someone else back then; the Polish government and media may not be willing to acknowledge someone who served in the Russian, Austro-Hungarian, or German militaries. Similarly, a veteran from that era may be embarassed to admit having served a power which colonized his or her homeland (an Irish in the British forces, etc.). In fact it may have been down right dangerous in some cases; an elderly Congolese man may have been wise to have kept his mouth shut about having served in King Leopold's army unless he was willing to accept the possibility of being strangled in his nursing home bed; given the brutality associated with Belgian rule at that time.JeepAssembler 18:44, 1 December 2007 (UTC)JeepAssemblerJeepAssembler 18:44, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Morning All, with regards to Wycech and Russian Army Service, I suspect that Ders des Ders has got this wrong. My reasoning is that by Autumn 1915 the Russian Army had been expelled from Poland, and the front line was deep into Ukraine and Russia proper. As Wycwech was only just 13 by then, I cannot see how he could have enlisted into the Russian Army, prior to their expulsion from Poland. The same also goes to some extent for Kowalski who was 15 at the time. SRwiki 08:53, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Well Wycech started at 15 so Kowalski could also have done. Of course Lennart Roennback was 12 when the Finnish Civil War was on, so that makes almost anything possible. But if he didn't serve for Russia then Austria-Hungary is still possible. I would still be for adding him to the era list, if not for the Jan Rzepa discrepancy. 80.2.16.73 03:02, 4 December 2007 (UTC) Captain celery

I think the big difference is that the PMO and the White (or) Red Finns, where paramilitary guerilla type forces and not officially constituted national armies, somehow I can't see the Imperial Russian Army conscripting 13 (or even 15 year) olds, where as history shows that guerilla type forces are considerably less fussy about this sort of thing. I still vote for an Era listing though regardless of the Rzepa discrepancy SRwiki 09:40, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Somehow I didn't consider the comparative professionalism of the Russian Army, so it does look unlikely. The article says that Josef Kos was the last Polish Imperial vet. That seems to rule out Kowalski. Doesn't mean that he didn't serve, but we'll never find any evidence. And I think he deserves to stay on our lists when he dies.

So for a move to era, you say that there's plenty of evidence of his service. I can't tell from his citations, obviously since they're in Polish. But we have the 'considered by press' criteria if nothing else. No-one has argued against us so I say make the change. It's not exactly a consensus, but this topic has been up long enough. We can't make people contribute.

Going back to Wycech, his notes say he fought with the Bolsheviks in 1920, but the article says he was against them so I'll change it. I like the fact that he first saw action on November 10th 1918. Talk about last minute. Of course he'd still have been a vet, but actual combat gives it that extra lustre. 80.2.16.73 19:48, 4 December 2007 (UTC) Captain celery

Well as no-one seems to be objecting I have taken the liberty of moving Kowalski to the Era list SRwiki (talk) 17:19, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Kowalski again:
I've got a answer from a person who speak polish.
He said about http://wiadomosci.wp.pl/wiadomosc.html?wid=8714409&ticaid=13cc4 that Kowalski lived in the russian part of "poland" and that he fought against the Bolschewiki at the end of the war. So Kowalski look to be a era-veteran. So I think we should move him ti this section.
--Statistician (talk) 23:46, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I think that this kills off any chance of service in the Russian Army, and all but ends any chance of Austro-Hungarian service (I just can't see them conscripting some-one who was both effectively a Russian citizen and underage.) Any objections to me deleting the the notes on "possible service in Russian or Austro-Hungarian army"? SRwiki (talk) 08:54, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Spanish Civil War

In looking at this list as it slowly dwindles - which I suspect may still take a few years yet, my mind turns to the next major conflict that effected the Western World. Which, to my mind is the Spanish Civil War (1936-1939). Incidentally, it started on my birthday (July 17th, 1936), so it is of particular interest to me. In looking at the Spanish Civil War page here on Wikipedia I've noticed that there is not a similar page of surviving veterans for that conflict - although surely there can't be thousands of them still left? (Or maybe there is?) I'd be interested to know from one of the statisticians who visits these pages (JeepAssembler?) how many veterans it could be estimated that there still are from that conflict - and raise the question of at what point it is perhaps appropriate to start up a more rigorous page documenting the last 100?200?500? veterans of the Spanish Civil War.

Is anyone aware of any current resource that tracks this sort of thing in relation to the Spanish Civil War?jkm 05:55, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

My suspicion is that it is too early to start digging (could be wrong) as the youngest vets are in their mid eighties but I could be wrong, I would welcome a statistical opinion on this before I start doing any digging - luckily for the UK there appears to an International brigade trust who may have a handle on this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SRwiki (talk • contribs) 09:47, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

The Spanish Civil War effectively ended in April, 1939; slightly more than 68 and one-half years ago. To compare with the same time span after WW1 would have been July, 1987; although I have never seen an estimate as to how many U.S. WW1 vets were still alive at that time a reasonable guestimate would be in the neighborhood of 150,000 out of the 4,735,000 who served (about 3% of the total); considering the V.A.'s estimate of 321,000 in March, 1983 and the 1990 Census count of 65,000. Of course one would have to know the total number involved in the SSW (Spaniards and Foreigners); their average ages at the time, and their actuarial life expectancies (a lot were killed in the aftermath).JeepAssembler (talk) 20:41, 8 December 2007 (UTC)JeepAssemblerJeepAssembler (talk) 20:41, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

i read that in 1990 there were roughly 39,000 british servicemen left from 1914 - 1919. thats out of 6 million so should still be a lot left! Webbmyster (talk) 22:36, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I believe the last Welsh veteran has already died, but there weren't many in the first place. 80.2.16.73 (talk) 03:21, 12 December 2007 (UTC)Captain celery

Given the fact it was a Civil War, I can't believe that there would at least be that many foreign veterans left - as Captain celery's comment would indicate. All those that are left would presumably be in their 90s by now - can't imagine many teenagers going off to fight in a foreign Civil War!jkm 04:16, 12 December 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jkmccrann (talk • contribs)

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Lost friend WW2 Veteran

Trying to honor old friend from Spokane, Washington, Max Landis WW2 B/17 Tailgunner shot down l945 Captured POW Survivor would like to find any way when he passed need closure 2607:FB91:1581:299:528A:FFB5:C685:E26 (talk) 05:46, 5 December 2021 (UTC)