Talk:List of teams and cyclists in the 2005 Tour de France

Proposal for improved table for this page, needs some work

Hi, this table I copied and translated from the Dutch Tour de France page. It still needs some work done:

• Fixing the links to the flags
• Somehow the borders don't look as good as on the dutch page
• Some untranslated stuff left
• Team names need to link to the right page

I think it could be a good replacement for the existing page, feel free to edit and improve it. --WS 00:03, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team			United States			T-Mobile Team			Germany
team managers: Johan Bruyneel; ploeg won 4e etappe						team managers: Mario Kummer
1.	Lance Armstrong	18-09-1971	United States			11.	Jan Ullrich	02-12-1973	Germany
2.	José Azevedo	19-09-1973	Portugal			12.	Giuseppe Guerini	14-02-1970	Italy	19e st.
3.	Manuel Beltran Martinez	28-05-1971	Spain	opg. 12e st.		13.	Matthias Kessler	16-05-1979	Germany
4.	George Hincapie	29-06-1973	United States	15e st.		14.	Andreas Klöden	22-06-1975	Germany	opg. 17e st.
5.	Benjamin Noval Gonzalez	23-01-1979	Spain			15.	Daniele Nardello	02-08-1972	Italy
6.	Pavel Padrnos	17-12-1970	File:Vlag CZE.png Tsjechië			16.	Stephan Schreck	15-07-1978	Germany
7.	Jaroslav Popovitsj	04-01-1980	Ukraine			17.	Oscar Sevilla Ribera	29-09-1976	Spain
8.	José Luis Rubiera Vigil	27-01-1973	Spain			18.	Tobias Steinhauser	27-01-1972	Germany
9.	Paolo Savoldelli	07-05-1973	Italy	17e st.		19.	Alexander Vinokoerov	16-09-1973	File:Vlag KAZ.png Kazachstan	13e st.
Table shortened as agreed with WS -Fred Bradstadt 21:09, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

I don't like this new table. First, the birth dates of the riders is (well, should be) found by clicking on the riders' names, and is not essential in this table. Second: Why use both their countries names and flags? In the existing table, the flag is small and comprehensible. In my opinion, the written out country names is just a waste of space. The information about which stage the rider DNF is ok, but then again: Couldn't we move that info to the withdrawal table in the main 2005 TDF article? -Fred Bradstadt 11:10, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

Well as about ninety percent of the riders don't have a page yet, this would be the only place at the moment where you could find their birth dates. And I think it is appropriate to display here at which stage they dnf. I agree that the country names aren't really neccesairy, but could be more comfortable for some people. --WS 21:57, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Fred Bradstadt's proposal for change

Discovery Channel DSC
Nr.		Age		Pos.
1	Lance Armstrong	33
2	José Azevedo	31
3	Manuel Beltrán1	34		DNF
4	George Hincapie	32
5	Benjamín Noval	26
6	Pavel Padrnos	34
7	Yaroslav Popovych	25
8	José Luis Rubiera	32
9	Paolo Savoldelli	32
Team manager: Johan Bruyneel

You're right that the birthdates aren't found anywhere but here – but then again, why are birthdates more essential than, for instance, past teams, past races and results? What I am trying to say is: We have a nice, readable table with information about the 2005TDF. If we would like more information about a specific rider, we should create a page for that specific rider including the above mentioned data, as they are not about the 2005TDF but about the rider. But I agree that the age of the riders might be interesting – maybe we should just create an age-coloumn instead (see example)?

As for the DNF stages: We could add footnotes for each DNF (¹, ² etc.), which, I think, is better than my earlier suggestion about moving it to the withdrawal table in the main 2005 TDF article. Kind regards, Fred Bradstadt 08:08, July 24, 2005 (UTC)

I agree on both points, and I think the example looks great. And age might be even more interesting when you look back on this page a few years from now, as it doesn't require you to do the math yourself. --WS 21:11, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

One little change I would prefer: DNF¹ instaed of Riders Name¹

I prefer the look of the List of teams and cyclists in the 2004 Tour de France, it's easier to read. Is it necessary to have the explantions of withdrawal at the bottom of the page, can't we just put DNF after the rdiers name and then readers can go the list of withdrawals and looks the reason there? Commander Keane 00:46, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree, it's quite messy with a footnote after DNF. If the list of withdrawals were updated with the missing info about fx Dario Frigo, we could just have one single note saying something like DNF: Take a look at the list of withdrawals at the 2005TDF page. -Fred Bradstadt 18:51, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

Consistency across WP

It correctly says here and here, too List_of_teams_and_cyclists_in_the_2005_Tour_de_France that Lance A on the Discovery Channel team raced and won the 2005 tour, yet if you go to Lance A's WP page, it now says in the prominent infobox that his 2005 team was the U.S. Postal Service. This is WP user's Kevin McE's idea, and not a good one in my opinion. The USPS did not sponsor their team (read, put up big $$$$) past 2004. Discovery Channel put up the money and should get the credit, but one WP editor wants to change those facts on WP because of some twisted "team continuity" logic. I think this is a bad idea in general and a bad precedent for consistency. Jack B108 (talk) 02:21, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you have posted this here and I see you have also posted at Talk:Lance Armstrong. I would ask anybody who wishes to add to this discussion to add there rather than here to keep all discussion in one place. Even better would be to discuss this at WT:CYCLING as this affects hundreds or perhaps thousands of riders Wikipedia has biographies on rather than just Armstrong. Severo^TC 08:43, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

I tried to make the cross-article 'consistency' concern of mine clear. If it wasn't, that is why this concern is posted on the two pages with sometimes conflicting information (they had in fact concurred on the Discovery Channel 2005 team for a long time, until Jan 2011). I appreciate the WT:CYCLING suggestion, though. Jack B108 (talk) 00:38, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Posting exactly the same thing on two discussion pages raises the possibility of two discussions about the same thing. It's better to leave a note (possibly quoting what you wrote, perhaps using {{quote}}) on the second page (i.e. this one) about the discussion at the first and invite people to take part in the discussion there. Severo^TC 09:00, 13 January 2011 (UTC)