Talk:List of teams and cyclists in the 2023 Giro d'Italia

Russian flag

The UCI, and many other sporting bodies, do not currently allow Russian and Belarussian athletes to compete under their flags. Whatever the rights and wrongs of that, that is a restriction on what race organisers publish. But we are not race organisers, and therefore are not restricted by that. I would contend that what we are doing is providing information to readers about riders: it is therefore valid to communicate the same information about Vlasov as we do about any other rider, and that his flag should appear.

If there has been an overarching Wikipedia policy as to whether we should, or should not, follow the approach of international sporting bodies, I couldn't find it this morning and would appreciate a signpost to it. If not, I would suggest that we act according to our practices, and not those of the IOC, UCI or other bodies that are more under political/diplomatic constraints and pressures than we are. Kevin McE (talk) 17:49, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

@Martijnvdam97 It is bad form to revert when a matter is under discussion without addressing the discussion. Please explain why this needs to be about the nationality they are competing under rather than the nationality that they hold. Kevin McE (talk) 19:04, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

You may be a year late but almost every sporting events (since February 2022) dealing with Russian athletes (and some times Belarussian athletes) have not shown the Russian flags (example : 2023 WTA Tour, 2023 ATP Tour, etc..) I don't see why the Cycling events are exceptions ? Pindrice (talk) 07:50, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Furthermore, we only follow the organizer's will : if they decide to show the Russian flag, we do the same, if they don't want to show the flag we don't. For example, in the official website on the 2023 Giro Italia, in the rankings section : the Russian flag for Vlasov is not shown : https://www.giroditalia.it/en/classifiche/ Pindrice (talk) 07:54, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

But we are not bound by what the organisers of any sporting event do: our purpose as an encyclopeadia is to provide information to our readers. And if it is relevant and informative to provide the nationality of anyone (which is open to question, but not the issue here), it is relevant and informative to provide the nationality of everyone, without favour or prejudice. Kevin McE (talk) 09:31, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

"Furthermore, we only follow the organizer's will : if they decide to show the Russian flag, we do the same," Is this a Wikipedia policy (if so, could you direct to it), the principle you prefer, or an observation? Kevin McE (talk) 09:35, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

In the following pages : 2022 Tour de France, List of teams and cyclists in the 2022 Tour de France, 2022 Tour de France, Stage 1 to Stage 11 and 2022 Tour de France, Stage 12 to Stage 21, Russian flag for Vlasov has not been shown. As the situation in Ukraine has not changed, we don't still don't show the Russian Flag, period. Pindrice (talk) 10:06, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

You seem to not have understand the purpose of Wikipedia, it is not a place where you make your own interpration : we use official sources and references, if in these sources/references the Russian flag is not shown (which is the case here) we don't show the flag here in Wikipedia Pindrice (talk) 10:08, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Plus if the reader really wants to know the nationality of Vlasov : he/she clicks on the link on his name and tadah : he reads the article and then he can learn that he is Russian : try it you'll see : Aleksandr Vlasov. Pindrice (talk) 10:11, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

The same could be said of any rider: why should we provide nationality details for Evenepoel or Roglic The same tadah can be acheived with exactly the same amount of effort for them. And are you suggesting that Vlasov's nationality cannot be sourced? Can you source any evidence that he has lost Russian nationality at any time?

Wikipedia is not a valid source, nor is it subject to rule of precedent, so what appears in the Tour pages is thoroughly irrelevant.

Perhaps you have not understood the purpose of Wikipedia: it exists to communicate information, and Vlasov's nationality is as valid a piece of information as anyone else's. It also has a rule of neutrality, which politically and diplomatically hamstrung sporting authorities are not, so we have the right to decide whether we publish his flag or not, and the obligation to make that decision with equity and free from political bias.

We don't have to follow the organiser's will: Vlasov's nationality is independent of that. And so are we.

Is there any encyclopaedic reason for not giving that information? And is their any reason why this encyclopaedia should abandon encyclopaedic principles over this? Kevin McE (talk) 18:11, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Subject raised at WT:CYC to try to garner wider range of discussion.