Talk:List of units and formations of the Spanish Army 1990

META Plan

Dear Noclador I have been having a careful look at the most up to date version of Andy's order of battle, at the micro armour mayhem site, and it says this: "In 1965 a reorganization was undertaken that divided Army forces in Intervention and Operational Defense formations adopting the brigade as the main component of Divisions. This is the organization shown by Andy Johnson. However since 1984 a modernization plan was underway aimed at improving the intervention ability of the army and updating its equipment. The META plan, as it was called only achieved its objectives partially, however the army was reorganized.." (p235). So what we have listed at this page at the moment is the structure from *before* the META plan changeover starting from 1984. It's clear that this is the pre-1984 structure because this listing shows divisions with subordinate brigades, which they did not under META (see Thomas & Volstad p30). This is clearly inaccurate of us to be saying it's 1989 - it's actually 1984 or before. But what we do have because of the copy of Thomas & Volstad that is now available is a structure from the META plan period, or roughly so; the book was dated 1987.

So because this is a structure from before 1989, once the current controversy has died down, I intended to move this page to a new title, and then we can establish a "Structure of the Spanish Army 1987" based upon Thomas & Volstad. Cheers Buckshot06 (talk) 05:14, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Buckshot06 No, this is the structure after the META plan. The Brigada de Caballería Castillejos was created in 1986 as part of the META plan. The Spanish Army's Training and Doctrine Command's "HISTORIA ORGÁNICA DE LAS GRANDES UNIDADES (1475-2018)" has the an overview of the structure from 1/1/1990 and my understanding is that the structure depicted here must be from after 1986. It might be from late 1988 as at that time the Coastal Artillery Command (MACTA) was formed with the coastal artillery regiments 4 and 5. I can update the structure with the data from Training and Doctrine Command's book if you agree. noclador (talk) 06:56, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Hi Noclador having looked at pages 75-81 yes that's the best source I've ever seen - better than JMR in 1986 (which I've also just added to fr). I'm happy for you to go ahead and amend the listings here with one caution - Fram's discussion/AfD should teach us that we need to be rigorously careful about sticking to sources. All the listings of infantry, cavalry, engineers, logistics etc are from 1990, rather than 1989. After the update is complete, the page date needs to be changed to 1990. As Fram has not picked up at all from my comments at the AfD, the general situation is the same, whether forces peaked in 1988, 89 or in the next two years.. Buckshot06 (talk) 07:49, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Oh and do yourself a favour, when you believe you think the debate is reaching the level of "insult," back off for 24 hours and don't comment. You're being a little too fiery, and that diminishes the arguments you're making. Buckshot06 (talk) 08:07, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

DIM 4 Urgell "It was created in 1965 under the General Captaincy of the IV Military Region. With the reorganization of 1985, it absorbed the High Mountain Brigade and became part of the Eastern Pyrenean Regional Command." [1] Buckshot06 (talk) 04:14, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

High Mountain sounds weird. I changed the layout based on your example at the Mechanised Infantry Division "Guzmán el Bueno" No. 2. Moved the page to 1990. Doing an update of the graphic now. Anything else we need to do? noclador (talk) 09:10, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

I am pretty sure the Spanish designation of alta montaña translates as Alpine. On another note I am certain that in a couple of months the next genius will argue for the deletion of the page based on the disparity of the title saying 1990 and the category it is in is saying structures of armed forces in 1989.B.Velikov (talk) 15:30, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Resources for expanding Spanish regimental pages

• es:Anexo:Regimientos de Infantería de España
• es:Anexo:Regimientos de Caballería de España
• this is a booklet with all the regimental histories of the Spanish infantry

Thanks to Noclador. Buckshot06 (talk) 23:23, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Mixed artillery and AA brigades in the early 1980s

I have been struggling to find confirmed, authoritative details of the mixed artillery and the two or three AA brigades of the early 1980s - Lopez does not cover them. Are you aware of any other sources Noclador? Buckshot06 (talk) 21:32, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

I didn't know those existed. But the archive of the Spanish Cavalry has a listing for the support formations after the 1965 reform. This includes one artillery brigade and one air defense brigade, but I believe this info is also drawn from Lopez. noclador (talk) 14:53, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. It appears that what Thomas & Volstad listed as "Mixed Artillery Brigades" were actually the Mixed Artillery & Coastal Artillery Regiments 1- 7. Buckshot06 (talk) 21:26, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

I checked again. Lopez has the three field artillery brigades on page 66:

• BRACA 1, in Mérida
  • RACA 12, in Mérida
  • RACA 42, in Córdoba
• BRACA 2, in Segovia
  • RACA 41, in Segovia
  • RACA 47, in Medina
• BRACA 3, in Logroño
  • RACA 46, in Logroño
  • RACA 63, in Burgos

Seems they were created in 1960 and already disbanded by 1965. Also in 1960 the following three formations were created:

• ACTA (artillería de costa ???)
  • RAMIX 1, in Bilbao
  • RAMIX 2, in Ferrol (Spanish Navy main Atlantic base)
  • RAMIX 3, in Pontevedra
  • RAMIX 4, in San Fernando (Spanish Navy base)
  • RAMIX 5, in Algeciras (Strait of Gibraltar)
  • RAMIX 6, in Cartagena (Spanish Navy main Mediterranean base)
  • RAMIX 7, in Barcelona
• ACA (artillería de campaña ???)
  • RAIL, in Ciudad Real
  • RALCA, in Astorga
• AAA (artillería antiaérea)
  • RAAA 71, in Madrid
  • RAAA 72, in Barcelona
  • RAAA 73, in Zaragoza
  • RAAA 74, in Jerez
  • RAAA 75, in Madrid

In 1965 the BRACA 1 and BRACA 2 were disbanded and their regiments moved to brigades. You can see that in the table on page 71-72. BRACA 3 became the Brigada de Artillería para Cuerpo de Ejército (BRARTCE):

• BRARTCE Command, in Burgos
  • RACA 63, in Burgos
  • RALCA, in Astorga

RAMIX 4 and 5 became RACTA 4 and 5 and were assigned to the new BRACTA (Coastal Artillery Brigade, active in 1990 as Coastal Artillery Command). And! here is even more info on BRARTCE. Seems Thomas & Volstad didn't know the artillery brigades had been disbanded by 1965 and only the BRACTA and BRARTCE were artillery brigades between 1965 and 1986, when they were reformed as commands. An air defense brigade didn't exist until 1988 it seems. noclador (talk) 23:17, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

super many thanks. Clearly T&V's information was awful. I have spun through the es:wiki's coastal artillery information without finding any mention of the RACTA 4 and 5.. any further data you could find would be fascinating. There's lots of articles on individual coastal batteries, but nothing that links it to regiments.. Buckshot06 (talk) 08:30, 5 October 2020 (UTC)