Talk:List of universities in Sri Lanka/Archive 1

Archive 1

Removal of content

Samankama has repeatedly removed a large amount of referenced content without discussion, violating WP:BRD. They are trying to restrict the scope of this article to include only universities that come under the University Grants Commission. Not only does this exclude the many degree awarding colleges and institutes, it also excludes universities which are outside of the control of the UGC e.g. General Sir John Kotelawala Defence University. Do other contributors to this article, such as Dan arndt and L Manju, support Samankama's changes?--Obi2canibe (talk) 15:01, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

Comment

• A university is defined as an institution of higher (or tertiary) education and research which grants academic degrees in various academic disciplines. Universities typically provide undergraduate education and postgraduate education. Under this definition the General Sir John Kotelawala Defence University, Buddhist and Pali University of Sri Lanka and Open University of Sri Lanka all appear to met the basic criteria for a University. There is insufficient evidence to determine whether the Buddhasravaka Bhiksu University or the Ocean University met the basic criteria for a university or not. Examining other similar lists they include both state and private/self-funded universities. On this basis it shouldn't necessarily be limited to universities recognised by the University Grants Commission. A good example is List of universities in Bangladesh, which is recognised as a Featured List. Dan arndt (talk) 06:38, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment Dan arndt. Based on that definition all of the institutions that Samankama has removed would qualify as "universities" as they offer academic degrees (see this reference which was removed by Samankama). Buddhasravaka Bhiksu University and Ocean University offer academic degrees (see this and this).--Obi2canibe (talk) 11:49, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

I see a problem with the current list. What about the private universities? Institutes like NIBM, SLIIT are also acknowledged by University Grants Commission (Sri Lanka) as degree awarding universities. The current list is essentially a list of government universities. When other countries list of universities include private sector institutes, omission in this case is discriminatory, and we are just sucking up to government universities activists political agenda. Regards--Chanaka L (talk) 08:37, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

@Chanakal: They are were all listed before Samankama removed them - see this version of this article. Samankama hasn't just removed private institues, he/she has removed public universities (e.g. General Sir John Kotelawala Defence University) and public institutes (e.g. Institute of Surveying and Mapping) that are outside UGC's control. FYI, NIBM and SLIIT are public organisations, not private.--Obi2canibe (talk) 12:33, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

The current list only shows the national universities under UGC but other private universities those are in accordance to the University definition should be included for this article. Removal of the previous content by a user, saying about Sri Lankan laws and acts is not a good argument.--L Manju (talk) 12:49, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

This article edit according to Sri Lankan law please don't change without understanding Sri Lankan university act 16 of 1978

Establishment of University in Sri Lankan should be "University Order" according to University Act 16 of 1978.These are the University orders published by UGC. Also, university grants commission is the governing body for Sri Lankan Universities (see This was Published By Government Of Sri Lanka Under Universities Act - Part IV section 21 [1].Also, Ministry of Higher Education(Also it is not a Governing body for universities their responsibility is coordinate between Universities and Government ) had published a list (see List was published by Ministry of Higher Education [[2]].Legal status of a Degrees Awarding of Institute (under Section 25 A of the Universities Act No. 16 of 1978) is completely different from University. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samankamal (talk • contribs) 18:13, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

@Samankamal: Thank you for finally discussing your edit. Wikipedia isn't edited according to the laws of Sri Lanka or any other country but according to the policies and guidelines developed by the community. As Dan arndt has pointed out, the definition of a university is a higher education institute that grants academic degrees. All of the institutes you unilaterally removed would qualify as universities even though, in your opinion, they are not universities under Sri Lankan law. Other than yourself, all who have commented in this discussion want all degree granting institutes to be included. I would urge you to see reason.--Obi2canibe (talk) 12:47, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

All the institutions on this list are recognised Institute with "university status" and "university title" in Sri Lanka.Other institutes(like NSBM, NIBM, SLIIT which were mentioned by Chanaka L and you ) aren't recognised Institute with university status and university title by any government organisation or independent academic body.Also, there is no any evidence to prove "University status" of these institutes.These type of institutes isn't fully fledged universities in Srilanka and some of they are franchising part of foreign universities and because of that, these companies and institute can't be categorised under Sri Lankan Universities list.if we add doubtable institutes (fake universities, diploma mills and Unaccredited Universities )such as SAITM to this article will mislead both readers and editors. Even Degree awarding status (Not to be confused with University status) of some institutes are challenged in the court and there are a lot of ongoing investigations Under Several parliament committees. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samankamal (talk • contribs) 18:44, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

@Samankamal: I think the problem here is that you have mistakenly assumed that only institutes with "university" in their name can be included in this article. This is not the case. If you look at similar articles (e.g. List of universities in Chile, List of universities in Estonia, List of universities in Malaysia, List of universities in Norway, List of universities in South Africa and List of universities in Switzerland) they include institutes which have other titles: College, Institute, Academy, Polytechnic.

Regarding your point on SAITM, it isn't up to Wikipedia to decide if private universities are legal or moral. Wikipedia is encyclopedia and we include all information that can be sourced reliably. I'm afraid your politicly motivated stance on this issue is lowering the quality of this article.--Obi2canibe (talk) 12:10, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Thanks to Obi2canibe for flagging this discussion on the Universities wikiproject page. I'd like to offer the following as a neutral party:

The issue is, at heart, about how a university is defined. There are a number of possible definitions, and which is most appropriate can vary by country. Some examples are:

1. An institution that is legally a university
2. An institution that grants degrees…
   1. by legal right
   2. with accreditation
   3. without any accreditation
3. An institution offering courses leading to degrees…
   1. that it awards itself
   2. awarded by a parent university
   3. awarded by a third party
4. An institution offering both undergraduate and postgraduate degrees
5. Any institution calling itself a university, whether or not it awards degrees
6. Any institution offering higher education course (whether or not these lead to degrees)…
   1. that is recognised by the state
   2. whether or not it is recognised by the state
7. An institution that provides higher education and carries out academic research

Obviously various combinations of these are also possible.

Overall, there isn't, therefore, any single definition of a university. This is why we end up with things like the third oldest university in England debate, where four different institutions can all be considered the third oldest university depending on the definition used.

Wikipedia cannot decide what the correct definition of a university is where this is disputed: the correct approach is to give both sides of the dispute. In the list of universities in the United Kingdom article, there are sub-lists containing those institutions that are legally universities (with colleges of the University of London listed under that university), other institutions with degree-awarding powers, and accredited foreign universities operating in the UK. This means that the article includes all institutions that could be considered universities by various different definitions, but makes it clear which definition applies to which institution.

I would suggest a similar approach here. If there are institutions that fall within a common definition of a university (e.g. "a higher education institute that grants academic degrees") but which are not legally universities, they should be listed here but separately from the institutions that are legally considered universities. This would then meet the requirement that Wikipedia gives both opinions without picking sides. Robminchin (talk) 19:21, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

@Robminchin: Thanks for your comments. I had no idea that there was so much controversy over the definition of university - I thought it was only in Sri Lanka. The previous version of this article, prior to Samankamal's edits, contained two lists, one of universities under the authority of the University Grants Commission and another of colleges and specialist institutes recognised as degree awarding bodies. I guess this would satisfy your suggestion of having sub-lists. It can be expanded to include defunct universities and foreign universities, like List of universities in the United Kingdom.

The issues with whether private universities are legal, which is Samankamal's main bugbear, can be addressed in the narrative sections.--Obi2canibe (talk) 20:53, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Happy to help! It is right to be cautious about potentially illegal institutions – I have seen fake universities attempt to get themselves onto lists on Wikipedia to make themselves look real. Institutions should be verified by reliable, independent sources both for this reason and to prove notability.

With regards to legality, it's worth noting that the membership criteria for the Association of Commonwealth Universities specify that members "Must be approved by the appropriate government authority to provide higher education" and (for full members but not associate members) "Must be approved by the appropriate government authority to award their own degrees".[3] There are 23 member institutions of the ACU in Sri Lanka, listed here. Besides the government universities currently listed in the article, the ACU list includes: Colombo International Nautical and Engineering College, Horizon Campus (associate member), National School of Business Management, and Sri Lanka Institute of Information Technology. For these private universities, at least, there is a reliable, independent source that says they are regarded as universities (at least for some meanings of the term) and are operating legally. From their names, I suspect they are not legally called universities (putting them in company with world-famous institutions like University College London, King's College London and the London School of Economics), but that is quite different from being fake institutions. This should be noted, as you suggest, in the narrative sections. The split in the earlier version of the article looks like a good place to start. Robminchin (talk) 00:47, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. I note your concern about fake universities but as long as we stick to official sources, i.e. the UGC or Ministry of Higher Education, we should be OK. I can see issues with foreign universities operating in Sri Lanka as there is no offical list. The ACU link is useful and membership could be incorporated into this article.--Obi2canibe (talk) 20:17, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

@Obi2canibe:Thanks for your contribution for this matter.According to my point of view if there isn't an appropriate universal definition for a University we can consider the legal definition of a university that was defined by Parliment of Sri Lanka(under articles of 21 of No.16 of 1978) as a basic definition for this article.Also, we can further consider the opinion of independent academic bodies such as Committee of Vice Chancellors and Directors, Sri Lanka which is a reputed academic body This list was published by them.Also, there are lots of legal, official and independent recognition and accreditation for listed universities while other institutes which were mention by you still in a doubtful stage.Also becoming a fully fledged university isn't a simple path in Sri Lanka most of the present universities passed various stage such as University College, Affiliated University and Campus before getting fully fledged university status. My opinion is that we should turn away these institute from the list till they have got university status Samankamal (talk) 10:17, 5 July 2017 (UTC).

"if there isn't an appropriate universal definition for a University we can consider the legal definition of a university that was defined by Parliment of Sri Lanka" Well, that's a ridiculous flawed argument IMHO. If there is no fixed definition for a university, then one cannot pick and choose an arbitrary definition include some universities and exclude some others in the list. All the possible instance in the universal set of universities should be included in the list along with their criteria.--Chanaka L (talk) 08:20, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

@Samankamal: Why should your "opinion" be the deciding factor? Everyone else who has contributed to this discussion is of the opinion that all degree awarding bodies should be included.

You quote section 21 of the University Act No. 16 of 1978 but ignore section 25A of the University Act No. 16 of 1978. The UGC and MoHEE are happy to recognise degree awarding institutes under section 25A of the University Act No. 16 of 1978 but not Samankamal. Must Samankamal get his way?

You quote the Committee of Vice-Chancellors and Directors, which is an association, but ignore the Webometrics Ranking of World Universities which lists 53 Sri Lankan bodies under its ranking of world "universities".

Your behaviour has lowered the quality of this article so much that it has become a joke, no one will take it seriously. It is clear you have joined Wikipedia with the intent of pursuing your political agenda and you have no interest in creating an encylopedia. Not only have you unilaterally violated the established consensus on the scope of this article, you have added narrative which violates the core content policies e.g. the "Culturalism of Universities in Sri Lanka" is unsourced (violating WP:V) and gives your own opinion (violating WP:NPOV). I don't believe you have any respect for Wikipedia.--Obi2canibe (talk) 14:08, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

@Samankamal: If you don't respond in the next seven days I will be reverting your changes as everyone else but yourself supports the inclusion of all degree awarding bodies.--Obi2canibe (talk) 15:58, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

As Samankamal has not responded I will be reverting.--Obi2canibe (talk) 14:26, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

I started editing some content on this article without noticing this discussion. I don't agree on Samankamal actions ! This list needs to include per the University Act No. 16 of 1978 and all the amendments that has followed, state universities, other universities and degree awarding institutes since these are covered within the act. Also this should limit to a list and other content like history needs to move out to another article.Cossde (talk) 17:32, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

@Obi2canibe: As previously discussed degree awarding body is a completely different from a university.Under section 25A UGC doesn't have the power to recognize an Institute as a university and this section valid only for specific degree not for accrediting a whole institute as a university.Before upgrade Institute as a university government should be published a University order which is a charter given by governments to legitimize the university's existence in Sri Lanka.These university orders are published by the government of Sri Lanka [University orders ] between 1978 to 2017.Also, Webometrics Ranking of World Universities which lists isn't an official document and most of the institute which is listed on the list are not universities as an example National Institute of Fundamental Studies Sri Lanka, Sri Lanka Press Institute these institutes are training institute for government departmentSamankamal (talk) 17:53, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

As per the definition of University in Wikipedia, "University is an institution of higher (or tertiary) education and research which awards academic degrees in various academic disciplines." therefore, a wider scope needs to be considered in this article as do the University Act. You need to move out of your narrow minded form of thinking. Furthermore, you need to gain a consensus before changing this content. Cossde (talk) 07:48, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

As I have mentioned before, if there are conflicting definitions, then all the instances of the set should be included. You cannot pick and choose a definition. This is blatant WP:POV!--Chanaka L (talk) 09:34, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

Redirect created

A blatant WP:POVFORK was created at List of institutions of higher education in Sri Lanka. In keeping with WP:ATD-R I performed a WP: BLANKANDREDIRECT to point that page at this one and remove the forked content. Robminchin (talk) 20:55, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

New section or article for Professional institutions and Advanced Technological institutions

There are institutions provide entrance to professions such as the Sri Lanka Law College and autonomous higher education Institutions for the management of Higher National and National Diploma courses such as Sri Lanka Institute of Advanced Technological Education and Hardy Advanced Technological Institute etc.Whether these Institutes should be added under a separate section of this article or should move another article? Samankamal (talk) 15:34, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

The Sri Lanka Law College is a professional training institute and has been covered in the Legal education in Sri Lanka as do Inns of Court in UK. SLIATE and Hardy needs to be covered in vocational education in Sri Lanka. NaminiGunasena (talk) 18:27, 9 August 2017 (UTC)