Talk:List of wars involving Morocco
Latest comment: 1 year ago by M.Bitton in topic Add the Almohad and Almoravid wars
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Overlap with "List of conflicts in Morocco" page
editJust making a note here that this page seems to significantly overlap in scope with List of conflicts in Morocco, especially with the expansions currently or recently being made. In fact they basically seem to be the same thing except one page is a list format and the other a table. I don't have time right now to propose or oversee a potential page merger, but I'll tag the page at least so editors can be aware of it. If a merger isn't appropriate, then the scope of the article should be better defined in some way to distinguish it from the other. R Prazeres (talk) 04:50, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
Add the Almohad and Almoravid wars
editI would like to add the wars of the Moroccan Almohad and Almoravids. Do I have to show sources for this? because their conflicts are already listed on wikipedia. Thomas162354 (talk) 22:37, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
- The Almohad and the Almoravids are part of the shared history of multiple modern countries, none of which existed back then. M.Bitton (talk) 22:42, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
- sooo ok. So should I cite sources that prove almohad and almoravide are moroccan? Thomas162354 (talk) 12:08, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
- That will be a waste of time as the subject has been discussed multiple times on their respective articles. M.Bitton (talk) 12:23, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
- ooh. According to my research and documentation, almohad are Moroccan dynastie. Morocco was founded in 798
- Okay so now I'll show my sources that the Almohad and Almoravid is Moroccan.
- Almohad:
- Book: The Oxford Handbook of the Jewish Diaspora. Page 223.
- ,,out of Muslim Spain turned into a full- scale rout with the arrival of the Almohads from Morocco in the 1146/47......"
- https://books.google.de/books?id=sOFDEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA223&dq=almohad+caliphate+morocco+oxford&hl=de&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&ov2=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiyjMGCjtT_AhUKi_0HHWwQA_kQ6AF6BAgLEAM#v=onepage&q=almohad%20caliphate%20morocco%20oxford&f=false
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- Book: Dictionary of African Biography Oxford
- Page 24
- ,,Abd al Mu'min builder of the Almohad Empire and great Moroccan military leader and able administrator, led the Almohad movement for tawhid, absolute monotheistic unity, after the death of the Mahdi Ibn Tumart, the Almohad founder, in c. 1130."
- https://books.google.de/books?id=39JMAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA24&dq=almohad+caliphate+morocco+oxford&hl=de&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&ov2=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjNt5i2kdT_AhUTywIHHUMRA28Q6AF6BAgIEAM#v=onepage&q=almohad%20caliphate%20morocco%20oxford&f=false
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- Book: Between Caravan and Sultan: The Bayruk of Southern Morocco. Harvard University.
- Page: 127
- ,,The descent to Sufism set in motion by the Almohads intersected with the emergence of Morocco as the core of a separate ... Morocco,” in In the Shadow of the Sultan: Culture, Power and Politics in Morocco (Cambridge, M.A: Harvard ..."
- https://books.google.de/books?id=zbQyAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA127&dq=harvard+almohad+from+Morocco&hl=de&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiEx7_nyOj_AhV1nf0HHaCiAXgQ6AF6BAgHEAM#v=onepage&q=harvard%20almohad%20from%20Morocco&f=false
- there are numerous sources. I only mentioned 3 for now. I still have to think about the Almoravids because they are more Mauritania than Moroccan. but Almohad is 100% Moroccan. Thomas162354 (talk) 13:44, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
- The obvious anachronism has been discussed multiple times in the concerned articles, so there is no excuse for introducing the nonsensical POV in this article. M.Bitton (talk) 13:42, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
- I don't quite understand. where was that discussed? I don't see anything here in Talks. I named 3 good sources that prove that Almohad belongs to Morocco. What are the requirements for Almohad to be included in the list? Thomas162354 (talk) 14:03, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
- The Almoravid and the Almohad Caliphate. Cherry picking some out of context nonsense is not how Wikipedia works. Frankly, there isn't a chance that the Almohad Caliphate (that covered multiple modern countries) could be included in any of their lists, but you're welcome to rehash there what has been rejected ad nauseam. M.Bitton (talk) 14:09, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
- Hmm ok
- As I said, I don't see any discussion about this in the talks.
- Furthermore, wikipedia works so that you specify objective sources and then that shouldn't really be a problem.
- okey since you don't consider harvards and oxford as a source and consider it nonsense, you probably believe wikipedia yourself.
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- Source: Wikipedia Germany
- ,,Die Almohaden (von arabisch الموحدون al-muwahhidun, DMG al-muwaḥḥidūn ‚Vereiniger, Bekenner der Einheit Gottes‘; Tifinagh-Schrift ⵉⵎⵡⵃⵃⴷⵏ) waren eine muslimische marokkanische Berber-Dynastie, die zwischen 1147 und 1269 über weite Teile des Maghreb und von al-Andalus herrschte."
- https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almohaden
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- Source: Wikipedia Poland
- ,,Almohadzi (arab. الموحدون al-Muwaḥḥidūn, dosłownie „monoteiści” lub „unitarianie”) – dynastia marokańska, pochodzenia berberyjskiego, panująca w Maghrebie i Andaluzji w XII i XIII wieku."
- https://pl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almohadzi
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- Source: Wikipedia France
- ,,Le mouvement almohade est fondé dans le Haut Atlas marocain[10] au début du xiie siècle par Muhammad Ibn Toumert, un réformateur de l’Anti-Atlas d'origine berbère de la tribu des Hargha[21]"
- https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almohades#cite_note-21
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- Source: Wikipedia Russia
- ,,Халифат Альмохадов (араб. الموحدون al-Muwahhidūn, al-muwahhidun, буквально «монотеисты»; исп. Almohads) — марокканское государство в Северной Африке и мусульманской Испании (1121—1269), управляемое династией Альмохадов. Государство Альмохадов возникло в результате борьбы с Альморавидами. Наибольшее расширение национальной территории при Абд аль-Мумине (1161 г.). Распался в результате...."
- https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%90%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%85%D0%B0%D0%B4%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D1%85%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%84%D0%B0%D1%82
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- Source: Wikipedia Spanish
- ,,Los almohades surgieron en el actual Marruecos en el siglo xii. Muhámmad ibn Túmart fundó un movimiento religioso con el apoyo de un grupo de tribus bereberes del Alto Atlas de Marruecos"
- https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperio_almohade
- ___________________________________
- can you explain to me why in this and many other wikipedia entries the almohad is referred to as "Moroccan"? All but the English wikipedia refer to almohad as "Moroccan dynasty". Is there a reason for this? Thomas162354 (talk) 14:55, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
All but the English wikipedia refer to almohad as "Moroccan dynasty"
1) That's not true. 2) What other wiki projects do or don't do is irrelevant to this one. 3) You didn't mention the French Wikipedia (the one that is edited by editors from the concerned modern countries). Is it because it contradicts your assertion? No need to answer. M.Bitton (talk) 15:08, 30 June 2023 (UTC)- No. Of course, after the collapse of the Moroccan dynasty, several countries emerged.
- _________________________________________________
- After the collapse of the soviet union, several countries came into being. The soviet union is commonly referred to as Russian.
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- okey so that I understood correctly. If I live in Germany, Poland , Russia or anywhere else then according to Wikipedia almohad is Moroccan.
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- but if i live in an english speaking area then according to wikipedia almohad is not moroccan and does not belong to any country right? Thomas162354 (talk) 15:19, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
- I don't know how else to explain this to you, but Morocco didn't exist back then, so the wiki projects that you are citing (while being careful to avoid those that matter, i.e., the French and the Arabic) don't change this fact. If how other wikis describe it is important to you, then maybe you should correct them. M.Bitton (talk) 10:12, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
- The statement about Morocco is not correct. The Maghrib existed long before the almohad.
- Furthermore, I do not ignore the most important thing, but in both French and Arabic Wikipedia it is pointed out that Almohad is Moroccan.
- In the French wiki, almohad is listed as morocco.
- https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maroc
- In the Arabic wiki, almohad is listed as morocco
- https://ar.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D8%BA%D8%B1%D8%A8
- Why aren't the almohad listed on the english wikipedia?
- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morocco
- It is also named that way. It is important to me that the english wikipedia is correct and the almohad is moroccan.
- Since we have a difference of opinion and you don't seem interested in a discussion, I'll end this talk here. Thomas162354 (talk) 11:10, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
- 1) The Maghreb is not Morocco. 2) I see that you're going out of your way to ignore how the concerned article (the Almohad Caliphate) is described in the French and Arabic projects, even though that's the article that you referred to when mentioning the other irrelevant wikis. Also, don't change your comments (section title) when someone has already replied to it. 3) Forcing me to repeat what I said about other wiki projects that don't support your assertions is not what I would describe as discussion that would lead somewhere. M.Bitton (talk) 15:49, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
- I don't know how else to explain this to you, but Morocco didn't exist back then, so the wiki projects that you are citing (while being careful to avoid those that matter, i.e., the French and the Arabic) don't change this fact. If how other wikis describe it is important to you, then maybe you should correct them. M.Bitton (talk) 10:12, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
- The Almoravid and the Almohad Caliphate. Cherry picking some out of context nonsense is not how Wikipedia works. Frankly, there isn't a chance that the Almohad Caliphate (that covered multiple modern countries) could be included in any of their lists, but you're welcome to rehash there what has been rejected ad nauseam. M.Bitton (talk) 14:09, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
- I don't quite understand. where was that discussed? I don't see anything here in Talks. I named 3 good sources that prove that Almohad belongs to Morocco. What are the requirements for Almohad to be included in the list? Thomas162354 (talk) 14:03, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
- The obvious anachronism has been discussed multiple times in the concerned articles, so there is no excuse for introducing the nonsensical POV in this article. M.Bitton (talk) 13:42, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
- That will be a waste of time as the subject has been discussed multiple times on their respective articles. M.Bitton (talk) 12:23, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
- sooo ok. So should I cite sources that prove almohad and almoravide are moroccan? Thomas162354 (talk) 12:08, 24 June 2023 (UTC)