Talk:List of women printers and publishers before 1800

Why only the 18th-century?

Why should the article be limited to just the 18th-century? Why not have an article for all women printers and publishers prior to the 20th-century, or at least prior to the 19th-century? As of now, there will be only an article about this century, which seems a little odd.--Aciram (talk) 12:54, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

• The colonial period, where there were very few opportunities for women to work, meant that these ladies were unique and special -- and rarely mentioned in many history books. In Colonial America their impacts were huge regarding desimination of inforation about the lead up to and through the Revolution and early days as a republic. I am getting long winded, I am so excited about it!

• It's a lot for me to just take on the 18th history, with a not to earlier printers, where applicable.

• I am thinking for a full list, perhaps it could just be a list with name, and still keep the 18th century list.

Would you be interested in working on the master list for women printers over time? Perhaps starting with Category:Women printers? I think that would be great.CaroleHenson (talk) 23:49, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

CaroleHenson: I understand, but this list is not about Colonial America: there are several different countries on the list. It would be easy and practical just to rename the article as "List of women printers and publishers before 1900" - or "List of women printers and publishers before 1800", if you prefer - and then simply ad the women active in these professions before 1900 on the list under each country in the article. Just add the names of the women when you find them. There are plenty of them here, just search in the categories of publishers and printers (for example "18th-century publishers (people)"). Some of the first was Anna Fabri and Charlotte Guillard, and there were plenty of 17th-century women as well. This would be better than to have a separate 18th-century-list, because there is not enough of them before the 18th-century to give all centuries before a list each, but they could all fit here. This would not take much work: just change the article title, that's all it takes. You don't have to feel that you are "taking on" a lot of work, because you don't have to put in all of them yourself (plenty of 18th-century women isn't there, and you don't have to put in them yourself either). Just put in those you find, the article don't have to be "finnished" by you: anyone who finds the article can just add an article they know about if the article has the title I suggest, and eventually they will all be there, that's how Wikipedia works. No one needs to finnish an article when everyone who reeds the article can contribut to it for as long as its exist. The only thing you need to do is to change the article name and add one or two before the 18th-century as well, and eventually people will put in the rest. To do as you do now (to put in the pre 18th-century in a "see also-section") is uneccessary and clumsy when you could just rename the article and place them directly in the list instead. You don't need a separate list for 18th-century Colonial America, because the 18th-century Colonial America-list will be here anyway. I can rename the article if you wish? Just tell me if you prefer the article to be about women "before 1900" or just "before 1800" (perhaps 19th-century women do need their own list, there are so many of them). Or you can just rename the article yourself.--Aciram (talk) 03:13, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

I have added several, but the article title really have to change: those pre-18th-century makes the article look messy when you can't just write them directly in the list. The only thing necessary is to change the article name. --Aciram (talk) 15:08, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Aciram I really like the idea of Women printers and publishers before 1800. Great idea!–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:28, 9 March 2021 (UTC) And, I am working my way through Category:Women printers, and picking up wasn't in the articles I had as references at the start.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:34, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks so much, I am guessing Aciram, for what I assume where the additional women from Category:Women printers. That is making it really easy for me to add the summary info.

As an FYI, I am 1) going through the List of women printers and publishers before 1800 and adding summary info and citations - as well as their dob/dod - for women without that info and 2) adding a see also for List of women printers and publishers before 1800 to each woman's article or fixing the link to go directly to that link.

My goal after all of that is done is to go back to research for articles and books about women printers and publishers before 1800. If I can, I think it would be nice to have a summary at the top of each country's section. As Arnold says, "I'll be back.

The suggestion for the article name was brilliant. It looks so much better now! Any other thoughts are appreciated!–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:02, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

You are welcome. That sounds great. Though it is not necessary to add a see also for List of women printers and publishers before 1800 to each woman's article: as soon as they are placed in this article, they are linking the articles together anyway. --Aciram (talk) 20:52, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

I have written a short summary about Sweden: it was not uncommon with women publishers in Sweden in the 18th-century since a widow inherited her husband's profession in these cases. However the majority of them only managed the business for cirka 2-5 years and then remarried and left their business to their new husbands, so only a few are relevant. --Aciram (talk) 21:50, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Note, as regarding the summaery text of sections: in Europe prior to the 19th-century, businesses and professions were largely restricted by guild regulations, so it would not be suprising if the women printers and publishers in most, if not all, European countries prior to the abolition of the guilds in the 19th-century were simply widows who inherited their business from their late husbands: widows inherited their husband's businesses and guild priviligies. Most of the women appear to be just that: widows who inherited the printing business from their husbands. In fact, this was the case with most businesses in Europe before the 19th-century. --Aciram (talk) 22:21, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Aciram I agree, although there are a few case where the business was inherited from the woman's birth family and I forget how one stage actress got into printing. I am seeing differences about: 1) the extent to which a woman is accepted (a few time resoundingly so and able to enter contracts), 2) whether she has an informal relationship with a Guild and pays dues, and 3) just takes over until her sons (and in one case daughters as well) are properly trained and able to take over.

I am not sure what you would like to be done in light of your comment. Perhaps 1) put the information at the top of the article, with sources for the general statement or several country-specific citations if a general statement cannot be found. Or, 2) do nothing, just an FYI, in the event that you thought I hadn't caught that yet. Or, 3) something else entirely.

Thanks so much for throwing out ideas. It makes the article so much better! I am just trying to understand.–CaroleHenson (talk) 22:41, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

CaroleHenson Yes, I wrote the article about the stage actress-printer once upon a time: her husband started the printing business and she inherited it. It was just a remark I made upon reflecting, since I remembered that this may not be common knowledge for everone (I have studied women's history for years) and so it should perhaps be pointed out in the article. But I have already added the information to the article - since it is already evident by the (referenced) articles of the women included, the summary on top as well as the summaries under each section is simply just a summary of already referenced information.

The history about businesswomen in Europe before the 19th-century is a special one. The guild system was commonly abolished during the 19th-century, and its after that we would have what in modern eyes can be seen as "career women who started their own business". Before that point in time, businesswomen were almost synonymous with widows. In my own country (Sweden), pre-19th-century businesswomen are even referred to in literature as "Bookprinter-widow", "publisher-widow", "merchant-widow", etc, it's such an established fact, and this is the rule in most if not all European countries prior to the 19th-century. It varied somewhat, depending on which businesses and profession was included in the guilds, and which were not, but generally, the above were the case with most professions. Nonetheless, the subject is interesting: after all, many widows simply remarried and left the business to their new husband, or sold it and lived on the capital, so widows who kept the business and managed it with success and even developed it and expanded it are interesting businesswomen in their own right.

Your questions are interesting! There were some differences of course, guild regulations varied depending on country, city and even guilds within a city. My own impression from my studies is that widow-businesswomen were 1) fully equal to men when it came to business contracts and such 2) the relationship was formal but not equal, widow-members had a special form of membership, they were not personally sworn in, they just inherited their husband's membership, so it can be seen as a sort of dispensation rather than an equal membership 3) this was entirely up to the woman herself, she could do as she pleased; some widows left the entire business to their sons when they became adults (or their son-in-law; daughters could never inherit directly, unless they were widows as well); some widows made their sons businesspartners and worked together with them; and some simply preferred to manage the business until they died. There are plenty of examples of all three types of widow-businesswomen (I can think of several 18th-century Swedish businesswomen of each kind as I write). But, I see I write a lot of things uneccessarily now, I attribute it to my area of study! You are doing great work, keep it up!--Aciram (talk) 23:15, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, Aciram, for your response. I find it very interesting, too. I have written or edited a lot of articles about women artists from the 19th century and earlier - mostly from Colonial America/US, England, France, etc. - even one from Sweden, Ester Ellqvist. I have found that there are some differences in women's legal rights for conducting business across countries... as well as calling oneself out as a women (some used their first initials)... so the experiences varied by country as well as the buying public, who would pay more for men's paintings than women's. I am really having more fun now that I am delving into the articles (and related articles, like Jan Moretus - that had not mentioned his wife's name specifically. Thanks much!–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:36, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

You are welcome. Yes indeed there were always some differences: for example, France had their own guild of seamstresses, which did not exist in Sweden or Denmark, which enabled Rose Bertin to rise to her fabulous career. In Sweden, Barbara Pauli could become a businesswoman despite not being a widow, because she worked in a line of business which did not belong to a guild at all. And some professions of course were open to women from the start, such as for example actresses (it would be very interesting to one day see a list about "Women managers and producers" about women theatre and actiung managers and producers before 1900, on Wikipedia)! Legal rights for women did differ between countries, I remember being surprised to read that in Britain, only married women were under coverture: in Sweden, Denmark, Norway and Germany, unmarried were also under coverture. So, there will always be more excisting differences to learn about!--Aciram (talk) 23:47, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

List of 19th-century women printers and publishers

A suggestion: perhaps, when this article is finnished, you would like to start the List of 19th-century women printers and publishers? In the 19th-century, women of this profession were sufficient in number to warrant one article devoted to just this century - but still few enough for it not to be a norm in society, so perhaps the topic would still be notable for its own article? I am not entirely certain myself, but since you have the interest, I thought I should at least suggest it. Best greetings--Aciram (talk) 14:55, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Aciram, I think that sounds like a great idea. I would like to take a bit of time to polish up some of the articles from this list first. I prefer article writing and would like to do a bit of editing, or perhaps new articles for this list for a bit first. If you'd like to start it first, that would be great.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:16, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Top in google search results

This Wikipedia page is the first item in google search results for: first Belgium woman printer OR publisher here.–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:06, 15 March 2021 (UTC)