Talk:List of youth solo sailing circumnavigations

Template

I created this template taking content from various youngest circumnavigator pages so that there would be a consistant section in each of the several entries that are currently active. It gives us one place to update as these events progress and should continue to provide consistent information for all. Hope this helps, feel free to comment or improve! (SEC (talk) 18:47, 26 January 2010 (UTC))

Improvements

I'm thinking that each sailors attempt should include: name, country of citizenship, dates and distances of travel, age of sailor at finish (start?), yacht name, some yacht specs. More? I wonder if a nice looking table would be a better presentation. (SEC (talk) 23:06, 26 January 2010 (UTC))

I was just thinking the same. A table would be better here IMHO. Also there's several precedents about not transcluding text. –Moondyne 00:27, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Great job with the table format, Moondyne! This makes it much more readable. (SEC (talk) 03:27, 28 January 2010 (UTC))

Validity

A concern was expressed to me that these are not "official records" any more (as reported on this entry). IMO, that doesn't change the fact that this is valid information. They may not be recognized by any official organization, but they are still sailing records. These are real journeys by real people that are newsworthy and noteworthy and thus I feel they are valid Wikipedia entries. (SEC (talk) 03:32, 28 January 2010 (UTC))

But any (potentially contentious) claims made on Wikipedia need some kind of authoritative citation(s) or reference(s) (see WP:CS). (Otherwise Wikipedia undermines its own reliability.)--TyrS (talk) 04:32, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Boundaries of entries?

I added David Dicks to this table, but only after great hesitation. Should this be removed? What are the boundaries of what should be covered in this table? Solo? Unassisted? Non-stop? Age? (SEC (talk) 03:56, 28 January 2010 (UTC))

Should Robin Lee Graham be included? (SEC (talk) 04:14, 28 January 2010 (UTC))

Yes. And as long as we're listing incomplete journeys (JW/AS), DD should be there-who knows if they'll complete it or need assistance? Heading the table "attempts" gives some latitude (no pun intended). –Moondyne 04:18, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Note that he completed over age 21. Maybe we should cut off at age 21? Brian bj Caldwell completed at age 20. (SEC (talk) 04:35, 28 January 2010 (UTC))

I would like to include those 21 years old. Partly because I would like to include Tania Aebi who was 21 years and a few days. --BIL (talk) 15:20, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

I think Tania Aebi should be removed since her circumnavigation wasn't entirely solo. We could be on a slippery slope otherwise. Other people's opinions on this? (SEC (talk) 15:30, 29 January 2010 (UTC))

Disagree. Some would argue that a true circumnavigation required sailing through an antipodal point: Martin and Dicks went out of their way to do this to be eligible to claim the record without dispute (see Lionheart). Neither JW or AS intend doing that I believe. So I think we can be a bit relaxed (here) about a 80 nm infringement. –Moondyne 07:09, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Check out the rules on [1] which I propose as guidelines for what qualifies on here. (SEC (talk) 12:58, 30 January 2010 (UTC))

References

Check out these sailing records noting the tabs at the top. (SEC (talk) 04:20, 28 January 2010 (UTC))

WSSRC circumnavigation rules and another summary. (SEC (talk) 13:26, 6 February 2010 (UTC))

Note that the website Youngest Solo Circumnavigators lists no organisation of affiliation. To use it as a reference seems odd. In comparison, the WSSRC was established by the International Sailing Federation.Hstyri (talk) 23:30, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Note that this was discussed below, and mentions of any records on this page were removed as per that discussion. (SEC (talk) 23:38, 11 June 2010 (UTC))

Records are only part of the issue. The Youngest Solo Circumnavigators web site (as it belongs to no organisation and lists no affiliation it's just a web site) is using a quite different definition of circumnavigation than the WSSRC. Anyway, Wikipedia shouldn't use an odd web site that lists no owner or affiliations as a reference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hstyri (talk • contribs) 09:31, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

There are no references to the site in the article. This is a discussion page. (SEC (talk) 11:46, 12 June 2010 (UTC))

Ryan Langley

I ran across mention of Ryan Langley, who states on his home page "I am Ryan Langley, a 17 year-old sailor currently preparing for a nonstop sailing voyage around the world! A voyage like this has never been attempted by someone my age before." Both Jessica Watson and Abby Sunderland, both currently underway, are younger. In his blog he states his voyage will be unique because he will be heading to the west instead of to the east. He does not yet own a boat and I failed to find any news coverage of him. He does not meet Wikipedia:Notability on several counts, so I don't think he belongs on this entry yet. But we might keep an eye on his progress. (SEC (talk) 23:30, 7 February 2010 (UTC))

I found an article on ExploreresWeb. (SEC (talk) 23:43, 7 February 2010 (UTC))

I removed anonymous addition of Langley. See above. I still don't see that he has done much more than create a web site, and he hasn't edited his misleading statements that he is the youngest. Also see more discussion with regards to credibility on the Cruisers Forum (SEC (talk) 23:35, 27 February 2010 (UTC))

"Unassisted"

The term "unassisted" should be explained. E.g. Jessica Watson does have assistance from the land via telecom, so the word is not used correctly. Or should be removed. -DePiep (talk) 13:15, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

There are a number of terms here that would not be familiar to those who don't follow sailing, and other parameters of the journeys that do not stand alone on this page. However, they are all defined and clarified by the WSSRC reference. Perhaps the WSSRC reference should be highlighted more, but I don't think it would serve readers to start duplicating information from there. (SEC (talk) 13:25, 8 March 2010 (UTC))

If a non-sailor (or any reader) is unfamiliar with the specs of 'unassisted', it is our task here at Wikipewia to clarify somehow. Else it is a jargon, insiders talk. As the word is used now, it suggests the general meaning, and will be read so. On the other hand, if WSSRC has a clear definition, let's put it here. Wiki has good ref-options. (Probably, it will interfere with the "noinclude"-status of the references. Why not include?). Proposal: check for the WSSRC explanation, and include the references in the template.

An other track we could follow: make it into a block-style template (with the fold/unfold option etc). This semi-article-makeup is confusing, innit? -DePiep (talk) 18:28, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

From jargon, insiders talk: "an article that defines every term, or every symbol, may be so cluttered that no one can read it." (SEC (talk) 18:42, 8 March 2010 (UTC))

That quote is incomplete: the sentence starts with "On the other hand, ...", so it introduces a tradeoff, not a singular judgement. And above that, the whole section is more clarifying. Anyway, I did not propose to "define every term". The definition of "unassisted" as used here is hidden from the reader, which is not good. -DePiep (talk) 14:44, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

References and citations

This is a great template. However, it would be enhanced by the consistent use of full citations in the references rather than bare URLs. I have cleaned up the references using citations templates, namely Template:Cite web and Template:Cite news. —Diiscool (talk) 15:23, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Days

If you start sailing one day and finish the next, you've been sailing for two days. Correct? Our formula would say one. Watson's manager says today is day 200; the table says 199. Shall we just add 1 to the formula? –Moondyne 08:07, 5 May 2010 (UTC) fergetit. –Moondyne 13:35, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

M Perham record absent on WSSRC website

Assuming the sentence "Currently Mike Perham holds the World Sailing Speed Record Council (WSSRC) over-all record for youngest solo circumnavigation" (1st sentence in the 'Youth solo sailing circumnavigations' section) is valid, we need an explanation of why Perham's name doesn't appear on the WSSRC website. (I.e. if it has to do with WSSRC's discontinuation of the record category, this needs to be explained.)--TyrS (talk) 03:33, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Could be because WSSRC require a significant fee to be paid to recognize a record —Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.32.106.135 (talk) 13:43, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

I think that is an editing error on my part. It is recorded here [2] but I don't find it on the WSSRC site. Good catch. (SEC (talk) 03:46, 15 May 2010 (UTC))

I corrected the paragraph, but it could still stand a bit of editing. Thanks, TyrS. (SEC (talk) 03:49, 15 May 2010 (UTC))

Thanks SEC. I'll try to tweak it a bit more. The fact that the sources or authorities don't seem to agree with each other makes it confusing.--TyrS (talk) 04:05, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

The WSSRC seems to only have a youngest non-stop record, and Mike did not sail non-stop. --BIL (talk) 19:28, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Redundant internal links

Is there a way to get rid of the redundant internal links (i.e. at the moment the ones in the table on Jessica Watson & Jesse Martin)? Thanks. --TyrS (talk) 04:25, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean by "internal links"? (SEC (talk) 04:32, 15 May 2010 (UTC))

Links to WP articles, when the words appear in blue. (Last I heard, WP policy on this is that the first mention of a term/name/whatever should have the internal link, i.e. double square brackets in code, and subsequent ones shouldn't.) See also WP:OVERLINK--TyrS (talk) 04:47, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't know of any way to do that. I also don't think duplicate links appearing is a major issue. –Moondyne 13:33, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Authorisation of records

When mentioning records (i.e. who holds what sailing record) in this template, it's really important to include mention of what body/group authorises said record (e.g. WSSRC, Guinness, etc) and provide a citation.--TyrS (talk) 13:59, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Introduction

Should there be any introduction? To say that Jesse Martin hold current WSSRC unassisted record takes away from every one else. I mean, why not say that Mike Perham holds current Guinness youngest record, instead? What I'm getting at is its unfair to put any ONE person on the indroduction.Trivial200 (talk) 04:32, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

worldsailingrecords.com

Many comments and edits here argue about "the record" but in fact there is no one record. Guiness, WSSRC, and others award "records". Or rather, they no longer award records specifically to the "youngest" circumnavigator.

Worldsailingrecords.com changed their site to now list Jessica Watson as the youngest circumnavigator, and includes an explanation here. We used worldsailingrecords.com as a reliable source when creating this article, and have used it ever since as one of our sources to fill out and document this table. Since they are an established reliable source on this topic, we should include their stance on this.

Trivial200 made an edit to reflect this (in good faith) and Bilby reverted it (in good faith). This template originally documented the record shown on worldsailingrecords.com, Trivial200 changed this article to reflect the change on worldsailingrecords.com. I am restoring that edit. (SEC (talk) 12:46, 18 May 2010 (UTC))

The problem is that I don't regard World Sailing records as a reliable source. They make a number of significant mistakes, have no contact details (there's an email form, but no email address and no other contact details), no names or qualifications of anyone involved, and no mention of any level of editorial control. As far as I can tell it's a blog set up by someone who appears to disagree with the WSSRC decision to stop counting youth records - certainly there is nothing to reveal expertise or official recognition in regard to the matter. In terms of errors, it deliberately fails to distinguish between with stops and without, (regarding "with stops" as more dangerous - a very odd claim), misses significant figures on the list of record holders (including Jesse Martin), and includes odd choices for who to add. - Bilby (talk) 22:39, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Their claim has been in this article for a while and the edit by Trivial200 was to reflect the change they made from Michael Perham to Jessica Watson (youngest solo without distinction for nonstop unassisted). I'm guessing you just didn't notice, but your edit put their claim back on Michael Perham as it was originally. If the source is not reliable, then I'd say the claim should probably be removed entirely. (SEC (talk) 02:07, 19 May 2010 (UTC))

Yes, I definitely stuffed up there. :) I should have been more careful. Anyway, I'm inclined to suggest we just don't make any claim per Jessica Watson for or against possessing a record in the list, unless an official body (presumably Guinness) makes a determination. It doesn't seem overly important, as the achievement was impressive whether it was a record or not. Inelegant, but it may work best. - Bilby (talk) 02:35, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Note that I did take out the word "record" in my edit of that claim. Since neither WSSRC nor Guinness is awarding records anymore, perhaps remove all mention of records and just let the numbers convey the story? (SEC (talk) 02:52, 19 May 2010 (UTC))

Sorry again - I should have read things properly. I've spent all morning reading up on Robin Lee Graham, and should have been more careful with reading here (btw, his story is fascinating, and a good reason as to why this template is so useful). Yes, that might be a good option. - Bilby (talk) 03:11, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Agree with removing mention of records in the lead-this template was never meant to be a league table, just a simple list. Agree also what Bilby said above re worldsailingrecords.com. WSSRC and Guinness are the only two RSs I can think of and if records must be mentioned, only those from these two and only in the comments block. (apologies, I've been doing some watchlist pruning and this somehow dropped off) –Moondyne 00:59, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

This table is a summary listing. As per the discussion above, I removed the records from this table, which had grown to include information about who could have had a record, who did have a record, who used to have a record, and various different records. And now it's growing to include websites and books they have. I appreciate the good-faith work trying to add information to the table, but all of this information should be included in the main article of each sailor, which is directly linked in this table. Let's keep this table simple and to the point. Thanks. (SEC (talk) 22:41, 25 May 2010 (UTC))

Regarding worldsailingrecords.com, they have an enitirey different definition of circumnavigation than the rules set by WSSRC (ref section 26.1.a). Regarding the current youngest circumnavigator Jessica Watson, she didn't complete the distance required by the WSSRC. Not that it matters, as she didn't file a form of notice of intention to attempt to the WSSRC before she started. It's sort of comparing apples and oranges. Hstyri (talk) 23:53, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

on circumnavigations

Robin Knox-Johnston has his own definition: "... circumnavigation without going through Suez or Panama Canals". –Moondyne 01:43, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Only two flags flown by Laura Dekker

Several people (maybe the same one, under different names, i.e. sockpuppets) have tried to include the German flag under the name of Laura Dekker. First, there was only a Dutch flag in that box, because that was the flag she flew on her boat upon departure in January 2011 (see reference included). Then we allowed someone to place the New Zealand flag after a member of her own family requested it, and we saw evidence from a photo (included as a reference) that indeed she was now flying the NZ flag.

The German flag has never been used by Laura Dekker at any time. She holds a German passport, but that is not relevant here as we are only showing the flags that were flown by the sailor on their journey around the world. There is no evidence from any photo that she flew the flag of Germany on her boat, so please stop adding the GER flag to the article.

Thank you. --Skol fir (talk) 07:59, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

hmm, this seems a little odd, if you don't mind me saying. Could you be more specific on who it was that requested the NZ flag be included? I would have thought the use of a flag was to signify nationality. In which case the inclusion of a German one would seem appropriate, whether it was flown or not. Theodore D (talk) 23:02, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

The conversation I had with a member of Laura's family is at my Talk Page: User_talk:Skol_fir/Archive_5#Laura_Dekker and User_talk:Skol_fir/Archive_5#Laura_Dekker_.282.29, for all to see. There is nothing odd about it! They did not even want the Dutch flag to be shown in the box, because Laura herself was upset with the Dutch government and media, and wanted nothing further to do with the Netherlands. We compromised by allowing both flags to be shown (NZ and NED). The German flag never came into the discussion. Let's not drag that one in for no reason, as Laura herself never promoted her German origins, while she did so for both the Dutch and New Zealand national flags, at different times during the voyage. Photos are provided for both these instances in this article, as references, in case you missed it. --Skol fir (talk) 01:02, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

having read your alleged conversation with a family member, I can only say that things appear even more bizarre that I first thought. If it is indeed genuine, then it certainly doesn't help Dekker's cause. In fact it makes her look rather petulant, it has to be said. As does the article cited in the references to this article, where her supposed manager whines on her behalf over a lack of support from NZ. Apparently NZ were expected to embrace her as a Kiwi. I'm also not sure about wikipedia policy regarding influence over the content of articles from interested parties, but I would imagine that it would be frowned upon. Theodore D (talk) 22:11, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Theodore, you should have noticed from my talk with the "relative" of Laura that he/she was pointing me to a fact about Laura's voyage that was already being reported in the media. I would not have accepted this person's input without checking for verifiability, which I did. Now the media have further confirmed this fact of two flags being flown at different times in the voyage. I have now added another reference to explain the use of the New Zealand flag, along with the Dutch flag at List of youth solo sailing circumnavigations. This is not frowned on by Wikipedia. Furthermore, as a Wiki editor, your personal opinion that Laura's behavior is "petulant" has no bearing on this article, unless one or more reliable third-party sources can be found that express the same viewpoint. For more on this, see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research. That is how Wikipedia works. --Skol fir (talk) 23:54, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

My comments were not in fact about Dekker's behaviour, not directly anyway, they were related to the supposed conversation you had with a family member. The one in which this alleged family member refers to the Dutch flag as "this stupid dutch vlag". This does not reflect particularly well on Dekker, wouldn't you agree? It certainly does put in question her motivation to "come out for New Zealand". This family member also claims that Dekker is originally from New Zealand. This is not correct. She may have been born in NZ, but she is not from NZ.Theodore D (talk) 19:41, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

The comments by Laura's so-called relative are not in the article. I cannot speak for him/her. So what's your point? --Skol fir (talk) 14:19, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

My concern is that there appears to be some efforts to emphasize Dekker's NZ origins, while dismiss her German connection. From the Laura Dekker talk page we find this rationale "The German nationality has never played a role in Laura's life, besides the fact that she happens to have a German passport. The German flag was never flown on the entire voyage. Furthermore, her German mother was the person most opposed to Laura's solo attempt in the first place, and only now has shown any interest to join Laura, when she finally completed the circumnavigation." Hardly NPOV I have to say. Theodore D (talk) 20:28, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

That discussion at Laura's Talk Page had nothing to do with the flag issue here. It was related to someone trying to place her German national connections into the lede of her article, which as you can see from the discussion is not allowed. Also, I was expressing my opinion in a discussion that was open to all, and I did not see you participating there, so what's your complaint? A Talk Page is different from the article itself. The purpose of a discussion is for all to express their points of view, so that the issue under discussion can be resolved for the article itself. In this case, my personal opinion was not even a factor in the matter, since the rules of Wikipedia were decisive in this matter. --Skol fir (talk) 03:53, 29 February 2012 (UTC)