Talk:Lists of atheists/Archive 4

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Two Possible Additions

John Malkovich and Julianne Moore are both possible candidates.

http://www.celebatheists.com/?title=John_Malkovich

http://www.celebatheists.com/?title=Julianne_Moore

Scarlett Johansson

So Ive been reading that Scarlett Johansson is an Atheist. She said in an interview for the Horse Whisperer that someone had asked her what she was (in reference to her religion) she responded with "ten years old"...Also her parents are Atheists...however I cant find any interviews where she states it, she very private about it.....does anyone know where to find something?

I can't find anything either. Found some nice pictures, though. :-) Nick Graves 22:10, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I found - kind of - what you referred to. I'd place good odds she's an atheist who realizes it'll only hurt her career if revealed. Citation information, if you want to add something from this to some article: A cool head and the hottest smoulder in Hollywood. Sunday Times. London (UK): Sep 3, 2006. pg. 15

Earlier this summer she sounded off against stars who thanked God at awards ceremonies. "Some people can be so goofy, especially the ones that say, 'I'd like to thank our Lord Jesus up above'. I'm like, 'For the love of God, keep your mouth shut. That's why the world is so f***** up, because God is focusing solely on your career'."

Perhaps it's a delicate subject. Her mother comes from a Jewish family and her father Karsten is a Dane, although both are atheists by Johannson's account. She celebrates both Christmas and Hanukkah. Chris Croy 01:10, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

With that comment and two atheist parents, I'd wager she's also an atheist. But that's not good enough to put her in. From one quote I found, it seems she has a policy against revealing her religious beliefs, so it seems unlikely at present that we'll find a source that definitively identifies her as an atheist. Nick Graves 01:46, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Gautama Buddha

I'm not convinced Gautama Buddha belongs in this list. Even if he denied the existence of the Western conception of God, it appears that he believed that other deities were real. I've solicited opinions from editors more familiar with Buddhism here: Talk:Buddhism#Was Gautama Buddha an atheist. Nick Graves 21:40, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

After reading the discussion here, I think Gautama Buddha doesn't belong on this list. He denied the existence of a Western type of God, but asserted the existence of other deities (devas). Also, since he did not write anything down himself, and words attributed to him were not written down for several hundreds years after his death, it is difficult to know definitively what his historical views really were on the subject. Nick Graves 17:02, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Some notable names are missing

I think the name of some notable atheists are missing. Some notable atheists who are missing from the List of atheists are:

• Hermann Joseph Muller - The winner of Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 1946
• Alan Guth - Physicist at MIT
• Gordon Gould - Physicist who is widely (but not universally) credited as the inventor of the laser.
• Lawrence M. Krauss - Physicist at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, Ohio

Jai Raj K

Well let's start looking for sources! Nick Graves 15:00, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Muller is in. Three to go. Nick Graves 15:18, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I could not turn up any reliable sources identifying Guth, Gould or Krauss as atheists. Perhaps you'll have better luck. Nick Graves 19:24, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Nick! I am so happy to see one more Nobel Laureate in the List of atheists. Yes!

Jai Raj K

What about H.L. Mencken? --207.69.140.22 06:11, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

See List of agnostics#I-Z. Hqb 06:27, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I just came across something that said he prefered to be called agnostic. The source provided at the List of agnostics needs to be changed. --207.69.140.35 06:40, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Arthur Schopenhauer surely belongs on this list. - Proof Reader 00:35, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Billy Joel

I added Billy Joel, the well known American musical artist. He's mentioned being an atheist a few times in interviews and in his lyrics. Lx Rogue 04:10, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

John Lennon

Edit: In addition John Lennon should be a part of this list under musicians. He also stated in his lyrics that he was an atheist.

Well he almost definitely was one, but is there a good enough source?Lx Rogue 05:43, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia has him in other lists, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Atheists

Even so, a source is needed. I removed Lennon from that category until a source is found. Nick Graves 03:58, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion, the songs God and Imagine qualifies as sources.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.224.121.107 (talk) 14:04, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Peter Atkins

I saw someone earlier put Peter Atkins there, but then someone else removed it because it didn't have source. I was googling and I found a source here: http://www.celebatheists.com/index.php?title=Peter_William_Atkins, a quote from him: "My aim is to argue that the universe can come into existence without intervention, and that there is no need to invoke the idea of a Supreme Being in one of its numerous manifestations." So I tried to add him in, but the citation thing seemed complicated, etc., so yeah. I'm not sure if this source is good enough, but if it is, I guess someone else can add him? Also, is the list supposed to be in alphabetical order (by last name of course)? Because a lot of it isn't.... Thanks, Nathansbenjamin 21:16, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

From that quote alone, we cannot definitively identify Atkins as an atheist. Also, quotes from celebatheists cannot be added unless they are attributed to their original source (the magazine, book, newspaper article, etc. in which he was originally quoted). The names are supposed to be divided by primary occupation, then alphabetized, but not everyone who adds a name has adhered to this. Help alphabetizing would be much appreciated. Nick Graves 02:53, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Jack Nicholson

I know for a fact that he’s atheist. I keep adding him to the list and it gets removed every time. Here’s a link:

http://www.celebatheists.com/?title=Jack_Nicholson

On that page, Nicholson is reported as saying "I don't believe in God now..." That's not enough to be sure he's an atheist. Find a reliable source that identifies him as an atheist, and he'd be a fine addition to the list. Nick Graves 21:48, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

This website says he's an atheist:

http://www.nndb.com/people/722/000022656/

NNDB is not a reliable source for Wikipedia. An article from a reputable newspaper or magazine would be a good source, or an article found on CNN.com or similar reputable news website. Biographies are also a good place to look. NNDB's vetting process is not as reliable as that used by more mainstream news sources. Nick Graves 02:55, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

List of atheist Nobel laureates

I have made the List of atheist Nobel laureates. The list includes the name of Nobel laureates who have received the Nobel Prize. Jai Raj K

Jodie Foster?

Is this enough proof? http://www.celebatheists.com/index.php?title=Jodie_Foster

They're a Wiki. It would be a case of the blind leading the blind if we directly cited them. I doubt anyone archives Good Morning America in a way accessible to the public, or HBO specials for that matter. We COULD use that first cite, but I'd only be comfortable with using it if we could get someone to go on the record and say "Yes, I have read the original article and can certify that the quote is accurate." Chris Croy 21:41, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Marie Curie

Marie Curie does not appear to satisfy the article's definition of self-identified atheists, The only "source" given is a brief, reference-free biography at womenshistory.about.com, hardly an authoritative source. Also, Curie is already on the Talk:List of atheists/Rejected list, and there has been no discussion about re-adding her. Hqb 18:17, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

The list criteria is not as restrictive as you say. Persons identified as atheists by reliable sources may be listed here. That Curie was previously rejected does not mean that Curie may not be added later if a reliable source is found for her being an atheist. I share your concern about the quality of the About.com source, and would not object to removing her unless and until something more definitive is found. Nick Graves 18:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Right, if justified by a reputable source, by all means she should be added back. But I have been unable to find anything reliably indicating that she considered herself an atheist, or was otherwise known to be one. The article about her at the Freedom From Religion Foundation (used as a reference for many other atheism entries here) calls her an agnostic. The quote they give (presumably the strongest they could find), “Pierre belonged to no religion and I did not practice any.” also doesn't indicate a strong disbelief in the existence of God. Given the strongly worded preamble of the list, I think the criteria for inclusion should be correspondingly strict: if a person has not explicitly self-identified as an atheist, they should not be included without very good reason. Hqb 19:43, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

For more on this topic, see Talk:Marie Curie#Atheist. Nick Graves 15:49, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I am making a change based on this

If I should ever die, God forbid, let this be my epitaph: THE ONLY PROOF HE NEEDED FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD WAS MUSIC

"Vonnegut's Blues For America" Sunday Herald (7 January 2006)

Response concerning Vonnegut's atheism

Using this source to conclude that Vonnegut sincerely believed in a God, and was therefore not an atheist is, I believe, based on an an overly literal and naive interpretation of the Blues for America essay, and illustrative of one of the pitfalls of interpreting primary sources without examining the context provided by other sources. Vonnegut's self-identification as an atheist, humanist and freethinker is substantiated by many quotes and secondary sources throughout his career, and this single figurative paragraph from an essay is hardly indicitive of some sort of dramatic turnaround and embracement of theism. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]

From the context of this essay alone, it's clear that Vonnegut is not presenting a serious proof of the existence of God, but is making a comment about how much he appreciates music. The paragraphs immediately preceding and following the imaginary epitaph show that the greatness of music is his topic. The epitaph is a literary device used to express his point about music, not a sincere profession of belief in God. Later in this same essay Vonnegut says "And by the grace of God, or whatever, I am not an alcoholic..." The flippant addition of the or whatever shows that Vonnegut speaks of "God" figuratively, but does not commit himself to genuine belief in God.

Vonnegut was a Unitarian (or more specifically, a Unitarian Universalist, or UU). [8] Anyone familiar with UUs will know that many of them are accustomed to using theistic language symbolically, without themselves being theists. In such cases, the word "God" is taken not to represent a supernatural being as it is in theistic worldviews, but some abstraction, such as supreme goodness, or harmony with nature or humanity, love, or any number of other ideals. As a member of several UU congregations, I have witnessed many members who identified themselves as atheists who nevertheless spoke of "growing into harmony with the Divine," or who wholeheartedly sang songs about God. Speaking of "God," yet being nontheistic in outlook, is a common phenomenon among UUs, and one must be very cautious about assuming what a UU believes based on the theistic language they might use.

Vonnegut has a long history of using theistic language, even as he identified himself as an atheist, humanist or freethinker. Take this excerpt from a commencement speech, for example: "You have just heard an atheist thank God not once, but twice. And listen to this: God bless the class of 1974." [9] Clearly, Vonnegut was prone to speaking of God as if he actually believed in him, even though he identified himself as an atheist.

The phrase "[i]f I should ever die, God forbid" in the Blues for America essay is a word-for-word recycling of a phrase he used in an address to members of the American Humanist Association for a memorial service for fellow humanist Isaac Asimov--an address of which he spoke in his latest book, A Man Without a Country:

“We had a memorial service for Isaac a few years back, and I spoke and said at one point, ‘Isaac is up in heaven now.’ It was the funniest thing I could have said to an audience of humanists. I rolled them in the aisles. It was several minutes before order could be restored. And if I should ever die, God forbid, I hope you will say, ‘Kurt is up in heaven now.’ That’s my favorite joke.” [10]

Why was this statement of Vonnegut's so funny to himself and his audience? It is because, as humanists, they do not believe in an afterlife, or in a God who sends people to heaven. When Vonnegut speaks of heaven or God, he does so with a wink. He speaks of God figuratively, ironically, or for humorous effect.

Here's another example, spoken by Vonnegut during an appearance on The Daily Show in support of his book A Man Without a Country (the same book from which the Blues for America essay was excerpted):

"I do feel that evolution is being controlled by some sort of divine engineer. I can't help thinking that. And this engineer knows exactly what he or she is doing and why, and where evolution is headed. That's why we've got giraffes and hippopotami and the clap." [11]

That last example of divine engineering ("the clap") shows that Vonnegut's "endorsement" for intelligent design is only tongue-in-cheek. Vonnegut does not really believe there is some sort of intelligent, benevolent Creator guiding evolution, and his humorous mention of this noxious organism shows it.

Finally, there is the matter of Vonnegut's organizational affiliations, which belies the allegations about his latter-day conversion to God-belief. Until his death, Vonnegut was the honorary president of the American Humanist Association (AHA), an organization that promotes a naturalistic and nontheistic lifestance (humanism), and whose members consider themselves atheists or agnostics. [12] He was also a member of the Council for Secular Humanism's International Academy of Humanism, which promotes the same naturalistic, nontheistic lifestance as AHA. [13] If Vonnegut had really renounced his atheism and become a God-believer, he most probably would have ended his affiliation with these organizations. His continued membership and prominent roles in these organizations is a strong testament to his continued atheism. Nick Graves 21:35, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Einstein

I am moving this from my talk page to here, where it belongs:

Einstein was not an atheist. He didn't believe in a personal God. However, he never clearly said anything about his views on impersonal God. Please see: einsteinandreligion.com. RS2007 11:50, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Three things: First, this should be on the List of athiests page not on my personal talk page. I will move the entire discussion there.

Second, the quote you suggest, and the very reference that you cite for it, are of doubtful validity. As it says clearly here on the page you provided:[14]

"Did Einstein actually say this? The nonsense phrase "mysterious force that moves the constellations" troubles me. This seems much more likely to have been inserted by the scientifically ignorant Viereck than it does something that Einstein would say."

Third, as per the definition on the atheism page, atheism is " the position that either affirms the nonexistence of gods[1] or rejects theism.[2] When defined more broadly, atheism is the absence of belief in deities,[3] alternatively called nontheism.[4]" (from the Atheism page). As such, based on the quote on the list, Einstein clearly counts. Edhubbard 12:03, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Edhubbard, do you understand the difference between personal God and impersonal God? Einstein didn't believe in a personal god. That is not good enough to call Einstein an atheist. You said 'the quote you suggest, and the very reference that you cite for it, are of doubtful validity'. I can show you many sources. Einstein clearly said that he was not an atheist.

WTF!!! How about thinking about WP:civil and WP:AGF for a moment here! If you continue with this sort of tone, I doubt that we can have a constructive dialog. But, what exactly is the difference? Are the only two options personal God or pantheist? Is there no room for an atheist who is also in awe of the world and finds it wonderful, in the strict sense of inspiring wonder (see Dawkins' discussion of this in regards to Einstein)? Edhubbard 14:47, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Read the following quotes of Einstein:

"I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist."[15][16]

This is the same quote that you gave in your edit summary, that I already noted was of questionable authenticity, as argued by the very source you gave. READ that source. Simply repeating the same quote doesn't make any more valid than it was before. Edhubbard 14:47, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

"From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist.... I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our being."[17]

This too, is problematic. He first says, that he is an atheist from a certain standpoint; specifically that of believing in a "personal God". However, he does not specifically avow a belief in a "non-personal God" (whatevr that would be). This is something that you are inferring. The thing that he denies sharing is "the crusading spirit", which is part of the general social baggage of the time; viz, that an atheist must be actively crusading against religious belief. Note that, according to the definition on the atheist page, this still makes his beliefs consistent with atheism. Don't forget that terms evolve over time, and today's usage of the term is broader than it was 50 years ago. Edhubbard 14:47, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

“My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment.”[18]

These quotes clearly proves that Einstein was an agnostic; he was not an atheist. It is not enough for someone to simply say they don't believe in God in order to identify them as an atheist, since they might be an agnostic. In the List of atheist, the rules are strict. We shouldn't be in the business of calling people atheists when they reject that label for themselves. RS2007 14:21, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

The third quote is probably the best, but in the context of so many of the other things, such as the quote on the main page, that Einstein has said, it is still hard to be certain about Einstein's beliefs. In fact, that, in and of itself, might be the best reason to leave Einstein out. His beliefs are complex, and have been variously dissected to argue that he held every point of view on the continuum from deely religious to completely atheist. Perhaps other people will have other quotes to include this debate? Edhubbard 14:47, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

After reading this discussion and the articles referred to here, I do not think we are justified in identifying Einstein as an atheist. In the Time article, he is quoted as saying that he did not consider himself an atheist. He does say that, from a Jesuit point of view, he is an atheist, but of course, the Jesuit point of view is not his point of view. He says "you may call me an agnostic," and explicitly calls himself an agnostic elsewhere. At most, I think we could call him a sort of agnostic deist, though I'm not comfortable even calling him a deist, since he was not entirely clear on what he meant by the word "God."

It is not accurate to refer to "the definition" of atheism, because there is more than one. Not everyone agrees on what an atheist is, and it's not for Wikipedia editors to decide for others what one is, but rather to report faithfully the various points of view about what an atheist is. Some believe that anyone who has no belief in God is an atheist (which would make nontheist and atheist synonymns). Others say you must believe that God does not exist, or actively campaign against belief in God to be an atheist (the latter appears to be Einstein's point of view). Sure, from a certain point of view, Einstein was an atheist (he believed in no personal God). But he did not call himself an atheist, and he specifically rejected the label for himself. That's why it's inappropriate to call him one in this list, as much as I'd like to see such a great scientist and humanitarian listed here. Nick Graves 17:05, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

atheist list?

first of all, excuse my english: question: according to "List of Atheists" from 2005, Zoran Djindjic (1952-2003) - Serbian philosopher, politician, statesman and former Prime Minister, assasinated.were on the list. Now, his name is removed, and can't find the reason why? All the best 91.150.101.92 13:38, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

All entries in the list must reference reliable sources, which was apparently not the case for Djindjic. If there is a verifiable quote of Djindjic referring to himself as an atheist, or otherwise denying the existence of God(s); or if there is substantial other evidence that he was an atheist, he should of course be added back. A quick Google search does not turn up any likely sources, though. Hqb 15:00, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

The Atheism Tapes

This series (available on youtube) identifies Arthur Miller, Colin McGinn and Steven Weinberg as atheists. McGinn self-identifies as an 'anti-theist' in addition to an atheist.

I know that Arthur Miller is not included in this list, so I suggest that he should be added.

I will take a look at those tapes and add some names as I have time. Thanks for bringing this up. Nick Graves 02:19, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Ricky Gervais

can someone add him i do know how —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.106.210.177 (talk) 04:46, August 22, 2007 (UTC)

He's already in the list. Nick Graves 05:26, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Italian atheism

Good 'eavans, as you British folks say, you have left out the whole Italian Risorgimento movement!! Many of the major figures were atheists (most of the others were anti-CAtaholic, anti-ecclestiacal deistic skeptic types). I have added a few of the more obvious names. There is also a lot missing in other areas. I'll mention one name I think should be included, but is controversial: Wallace Stevens. Just read the damned poetry carefully enough and you'll find that rejection of God and acceptance of life and art as substiute (niethzean influence is obvious) is the central theme.--Francesco Franco 11:04, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

From that list to this list

I have added several people on List of atheists. Several people who clearly said that they don't believe in God were listed on List of nontheists. That's problematic.

Nontheism is not recorded in notable dictionaries as of 2007. Thus, only those people who have identified themselves as a nontheist should be included on that list. Otherwise, WP:OR will be violated. The correct definition of nontheist is someone who rejects the concept of theistic God. Thus, people who say "I don't believe in God" must be listed on this list. RS1900 08:02, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

People who say "I don't believe in God" are nontheists, since they reject the concept of a theistic God, along with all of the impersonal and other concepts of God. There is no original research in this. There are competing definitions for "atheist," some of which exclude those who merely disbelieve in God. That's why those who say "I don't believe in God" aren't to be listed here unless a reliable source calls them an atheist. Nick Graves 21:44, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I am busy right now. I will discuss later. RS1900 13:43, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I didn’t understand the rule properly. I joined Wikipedia in July, 2007. That’s why I made the error. Thank you. RS1900 04:09, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

The word nontheism is not recorded in notable dictionaries as of 2007. There is a problem. I don't want discussions right now. RS1900 05:28, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

From the Oxford English Dictionary: "non-theist, n. A person who is not a theist." Also: "non-theistic, adj. Not having or involving a belief in God, esp. as a being who reveals himself to humanity." Nick Graves 21:42, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I miss some people

What about Angelina Jolie, Bill Gates, Bruce Lee, Larry Flynt, Asia Carrera? I'm sure that there are much more famous people who are not in this article —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.72.100.247 (talk) 18:47, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

All of those (except Bruce Lee, I think) have been on the list at some point. The problem was that no reliable sources as yet have been found identifying them as atheists. Nick Graves 21:00, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I think some of them are atheists. Here, a reliable source is needed. They should be identifed as an atheist by a reliable source. Jai Raj K 07:41, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Footnote 164 needs changing

And I'm not sure how to do it myself. I am the author of the article that is referenced there, and the link is actually to a (badly edited) reprint of the original article, which can be found here. I would prefer that the link go to the article that didn't get butchered. Drostova 10:02, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Done. Cheers, Ian Rose 13:38, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Lovely, thank you for changing the link--how about the reference from "Hindusim Today" to "East Bay Express, April 30 2003"? I would do it, but I can't find the reflist. And then I'll shut up. The page is really cool, btw. Drostova 19:26, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Heh, you don't want much do you?! No prob, my colleague SwitChar has taken care of that... Cheers, Ian Rose 07:50, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Always a pleasure to help. Have you written any other articles which might be of use, perchance? ~ Switch (✉✍☺☒) 08:24, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

2 More Additions

Here are a few Vladimir Lenin quotes I found:

"Atheism is a natural and inseparable portion of Marxism, of the theory and practice of scientific socialism. Our propaganda necessarily includes propaganda for atheism.” Source

“Darwin put an end to the belief that the animal and vegetable species bear no relation to one another, except by chance, and that they were created by God , and hence immutable.” Source

I found both quotes on a few websites, so they look legit. I think he should be added.

Also to be fair, here is a far better human that could be added to the list, notable physicist Kip Thorne:

"Do you believe in God or a “higher power”?

No. I lost interest in religion many years ago, when it became evident to me that religion is far less effective in dealing with the world and improving the lives of people than science is, and when I developed a strong aversion to believing things on pure faith. My parents instilled in me a strong moral compass based not on religion, but on humanism—and on an appreciation for the rights of others to think differently, believe differently. Despite the woes of the world, I see that humans have an enormous capacity for good, an enormous capacity to help each other achieve better and richer lives." Source

If nobody has any problems with these two I believe they should be added. On one other note I think it is great using the many quotes at the bottom of the page as definitive source of these people beliefs. However, is it really necessary to find a quote for people like Mao Zedong and other communist leaders whose actions spoke louder than any quote. Thanks. --Scott 02:35, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Hello Scott. Those first two sources are personal websites. Those aren't acceptable for a Wikipedia article. Please review WP:RS to get an idea of what sort of sources are acceptable.

The Lenin quote would be good for identifying Lenin as an atheist, but it has to be traced to a reliable source. The quote about Darwin does not identify him as an atheist. Besides, Darwin himself said he was an agnostic, not an atheist (see the quote in List of agnostics. The quote for Kip Thorne isn't enough to identify him as an atheist, though it would be sufficient to put him in List of nontheists.

Not all of the quotes in the list are from the persons themselves. Many of them are from reliable sources that identify the persons as atheists. Such quotes can be useful for those using this list as a resource for research, but also help other editors that wish to verify that identification as an atheist has actually been made in the source cited. I'm not sure how one could identify someone as an atheist by their actions, and doing so would probably constitute WP:OR. Nick Graves 13:23, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough, I was unaware about the citing of the personal websites, my apologies. Thanks.--Scott 21:14, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

List of Famous Atheists

As a "List of atheists" I don't see myself or anyone I know on there. Perhaps the page could be more specific with the qualifier famous or notable.--68.236.251.175 01:27, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

On these lists, it is usually presumed that all those listed are notable, so such a name change shouldn't be necessary. There are some lists that include the "notable" qualifier in the title, but that is not the general practice. Nick Graves 03:22, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Lists (stand-alone lists)#Naming conventions for specifics. ~ Switch (✉✍☺☒) 11:10, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Discussion from Rejected page

I have taken the liberty of moving discussion from the list of rejected people to the main talk page. I believe this is a more appropriate spot for it. See two sections below. Nick Graves 15:59, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Bill Maher

(Pardon if this is the wrong context to do this, but I'm new to Wikipedia.)

Just thought I'd throw this out there: Bill Maher isn't an atheist.

In a 2002 article by The Onion AV Club titled "Is There A God?" Maher was one of many celebrities asked the title question. His response is as follows:

I think there is. We did a show last night about God and religion with Dave Foley, who I love, and we were arguing against this one woman who had a book called I Like Being Catholic. Someone said, 'Oh, boy, a lot of atheists on this panel.' I said, 'I'm not an atheist. There's a really big difference between an atheist and someone who just doesn't believe in religion. Religion to me is a bureaucracy between man and God that I don't need. But I'm not an atheist, no.' I believe there's some force. If you want to call it God... I don't believe God is a single parent who writes books. I think that the people who think God wrote a book called The Bible are just childish. Religion is so childish. What they're fighting about in the Middle East, it's so childish. These myths, these silly little stories that they believe in fundamentally, that they take over this little space in Jerusalem where one guy flew up to heaven—no, no, this guy performed a sacrifice here a thousand million years ago. It's like, 'Who cares? What does that have to do with spirituality, where you're really trying to get, as a human being and as a soul moving in the universe?' But I do believe in a God, yes."

The article can be found online here: http://www.theonionavclub.com/feature/index.php?issue=3837&f=1

I'm a big Bill Maher fan and an atheist myself, but in the interest of accuracy and integrity I think his name should definately be removed from the list.

Be my guest. Move the entry and this comment to the /Rejected subpage. --Pablo D. Flores 17:15, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Stephen Hawking

As mentioned on the archived talk page

Removed Stephen Hawking - although many people imagine he must be an atheist, publicly he is deliberately equivocal on the point. When pressed he has said 'I don't believe in a personal God', but he can believe in a God as the embodiment of the laws of physics. - Solipsist 16:41, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Hawking is most likely a deist, so removed again. -- Solipsist 08:20, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I read in Vanity Fair that Hawking was an Atheist-I'm the one who added him in April 2005. I thought that qualified as evidence. Seriously, is there any evidence to the contrary? -- User:152.163.100.70 05:43, 7 Apr 2005

The 2004 Vanity Fair article was pretty good. I don't recall what it had to say on Hawking being an atheist, but I may still have the article around somewhere. The general view that Hawking is a deist, with several quotes and references can be found on the Celebrity atheist list. -- Solipsist 21:02, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"Now, lest anyone be confused, let me state that Hawking strenuously denies charges that he is an atheist. When he is accused of that he really gets angry and says that such assertions are not true at all. He is an agnostic or deist or something more along those lines. He's certainly not an atheist and not even very sympathetic to atheism." - Dr. "Fritz" Schaefer Druac Blaise 05:16, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

"What I have done is to show that it is possible for the way the universe began to be determined by the laws of science. In that case, it would not be necessary to appeal to God to decide how the universe began. This doesn't prove that there is no God, only that God is not necessary. [Stephen W. Hawking, Der Spiegel, 1989]" - About.com - Quotations on Freethought and Religion Druac Blaise 05:47, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

God is not necessary. Since the term atheist is not defined clearly anyway, (weather a person is mean, which believes that there is certainly no god, or that he is just not necessary) I suggest that you add him again —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.72.100.247 (talk) 18:51, 26 September 2007 (UTC)