Talk:Lithuanian Farmers and Greens Union

Centre-left?

How can be centre-left a party which is member of UEN and AEN? --Checco (talk) 11:24, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

well in eastern europe there can be weird "left" parties Braganza (talk) 17:01, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

not a left-wing party

The party describes oneself as defending "traditional values" and protecting farmers interests. It's political rhetoric is most comparable to PiS of Poland. Just like PiS it advocates for welfare state, but welfare doesn't automatically align the party with the left. Best description is "Right-wing populism". 78.58.3.21 (talk) 21:25, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Keep in mind that we do not classify parties on the basis of their rhetoric being comparable to X, that would be WP:OR.

If you have sources for the party being right-wing populists, you can present them. But keep in mind we do have sources for the party's left-wing populist alignment. Brat Forelli🦊 17:43, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

During TV EU parliament debate the leader of the party list expressed clear intention if elected to join European Conservatives and Reformists parliamentary group. That group is for right-wing parties such as Polish PiS that Lithuanian farmers-greens emulate. 78.58.3.21 (talk) 20:12, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Interestingly enough, there were other left-wing agrarian parties that joined them. Self-Defence of the Republic of Poland comes to mind.

Trying to group political parties based on their pan-European allegiance would be an educated guess at most - which we do not need since we have sources instead. Brat Forelli🦊 22:16, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

It can't be considered far-left because far-left is anti-capitalism, and this party's leader is one of the richest people in Lithuania. You undid my edit and called it "my own opinion", but this is not just my opinion, the wikipedia article clearly states that the party is conservative, which is a right-wing position, and economically it can be called centre-left, not left-wing. The Wikipedia article for "Union of Democrats "For Lithuania" party that was created in the 2022 doesn't call it left-wing, just centre-left, when in reality, atleast according to this political test https://www.manobalsas.lt/testas/rezultatai2024seimas.php the union of democrats is more left than farmers and greens in both economic and cultural issues. This 2019 article https://www.lrt.lt/naujienos/lietuvoje/2/940195/kaip-susigaudyti-lietuvos-politikoje-tarp-politiniu-principu-ir-asfaltines-lyderystes states that farmers and greens position on political spectrum is hard to classify and that it consists of various views, while those party members that are described as leftists or centrists in 2024 are no longer in the farmers and greens party, now they are in the union of democrats for lithuania. So please, return the changes that i made and cite these or other sources. Stop calling it a left-wing party when it doesn't make any sense to call it a left-wing party, it's clearly centre-left in economic issues and right-wing in cultural issues. 79.133.232.113 (talk) 22:48, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

It can't be considered far-left - "Far-left" does not appear in the article. What does appear is "extreme left" in quotation marks as this is how Virgis Valentinavicius described the party as. All you're doing here is stating your own opinion that is in disagreement with Valentinavicius.

I'm afraid you're still giving us your own opinions and not much else. "Far-left is anti-capitalism, and this party's leader is one of the richest people in Lithuania" - a party is far-left when we have sources that describe the party as such, the leader's wealth got nothing to do with it.

You also said - the wikipedia article clearly states that the party is conservative, which is a right-wing position. The party is called socially conservative. The conclusion that a socially conservative party is necessarily right-wing is WP:OR. Some socially conservative left-wing parties would include Alliance Sahra Wagenknecht, Smer, the Dutch Socialist Party, Ecological Democratic Party, among others. This is called left-wing authoritarianism in political science, so having "leftwing economic positions while being authoritarian, conservative and nationalist on cultural policy issues" (per Bridging Left and Right? How Sahra Wagenknecht Could Change the German Party Landscape by Sarah Wagner).

when in reality, atleast according to this political test - political tests are not WP:RS.

This 2019 article states that farmers and greens position on political spectrum is hard to classify - the article says that Saulius Skvernelis "has more centrist views", and that in the party "we can find behavioral manifestations of various political views." This applies more or less to every party (in fact, the article says - "The problem is that political left and right, as a political scheme, has no content in itself. The content is basically populated by politicians depending on what kind of political conflict is dominant in a given country."), but in case of LVŽS, the Ideology section does mention the ideological variety. But what the article doesn't do, is that it doesn't tell us whether the party is left-wing or right-wing. It makes no such classification.

while those party members that are described as leftists or centrists in 2024 are no longer in the farmers and greens party, now they are in the union of democrats for lithuania. - in other words, you insist the party is right-wing because some party members that were described as left-wing/centrist in 2019 are no longer members of the party. This is exactly what we have to avoid on Wikipedia, per WP:OR. This is just a conclusion you jumped to based on an article. The article does not say that at all.

So please, return the changes that i made and cite these or other sources. - we have plenty of sources that call it centre-left and left-wing, which you can see on the infobox, or in the ideology section. This is why it is classified as such. Brat Forelli🦊 05:50, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

there is a cultural classification of the left and right, with left being progressivism, and right being conservatism. so why is the leaning section only mentions the left, if it's only talking about the economics(and it's economics relative to other modern lithuanian parties, which aren't the most left), ignoring the cultural classification of left and right?

why is this particular test not a reliable source if it was made according to the questionnaires that were answered by the parties themselves?

i am not insisting that the party is right-wing, i insist that it is incorrect to call it a left party. why is the left-right classification neccesary there when it's so controversial? i am not the first person who would call it incorrect. the left-right classification in general isn't very good, but for eastern european countries it doesn't work at all, the pro-west vs pro-russian and anti-communist vs post-communist is more important distinction there 79.133.232.113 (talk) 09:13, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

with left being progressivism, and right being conservatism
I directed you to a source explaining the phenomena such as left-wing authoritarianism/left-conservatism in my previous reply. Political science is not as simple as the assumption that progressivism is inherently left-wing and conservatism inherently right-wing. The party is classified as left-wing by reliable sources and that's as far as we go without getting into WP:OR.

why is this particular test not a reliable source if it was made according to the questionnaires that were answered by the parties themselves?
So you mean that Union of Democrats "For Lithuania" described themselves as more left-wing than LVŽS? The labels parties attach to their political opponents are not reliable. If you mean that LVŽS described themselves as right-wing in the questionnaire, I would love to see that.

the left-right classification in general isn't very good, but for eastern european countries it doesn't work at all
I agree, Eastern Europe has a different political culture than the West. This is why LVŽS can be considered a left-wing party even if it would be rejected by American left-wing circles for example. Brat Forelli🦊 15:05, 11 October 2024 (UTC)