Talk:Lithuanians

South Africa

South Africa has a Jewish population of between 70-120 thousand. Most statistics show that 80% of these are of Lithuanian decent (one famous SA Lithuanian is Joe Slovo), which leads to a number way over 60,000. I was wondering if we could add this information?? Bezuidenhout (talk) 22:48, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

No, because Jews who immigrated from Lithuania are not Lithuanian. We didn't even speak Lithuanian or Belorussian or Russian. We spoke Yiddish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Capestessa (talk • contribs) 03:27, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

I have never heard of laurynas gucevicius why is he among the famous people?

Seriously all of these famous people I know a lot about and soem random guy laurynas gucevicius I have never heard of in there?... but balys sruoga or something in there not someone no one knows aboout. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.173.37.60 (talk) 18:02, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Genetics: CCR5-D32 Mutation is misleading

I found this article through a recent Reddit post claiming that 16% of Lithuanians are resistant against HIV. This is based on the following sentence in the article here:

The CCR5-D32 allele, which confers resistance to HIV infection, is present in about 16% of the Lithuanian population. Its relatively high frequency may have arisen as a response to epidemics of smallpox or plague in the region.

This sentence is highly misleading at best. Each gene in the human has two alleles. In 16% of Lithuanians one copy of the gene is said CCR5-D32 allele, while the other is not. The wildtype allele of the CCR5 gene still produces the CCR5 co-receptor and therefore those individuals are not immune to HIV. They only have a 35% lower chance of contracting HIV. [1] Full resistance against HIV is only achieved if both copies of the CCR5 gene carry the CCR5-D32 allele, which is the case in only about 1% of Europeans. The sentence in the article is very misleading. The Reddit post shows that it's being understood as 16% of Lithuanians being completely resistant to HIV which is not the case. Who knows, it might even encourage some people to be less careful when having sex because they wrongly believe they are immune against HIV. That's just a speculation of course. The other issue that I have with that sentence is that it gives the impression that the occurrence of the CCR5-D32 allele in Lithuanians is in any way special. If you read the original PLoS One publication that is given as a ref you will realize that much of Northern Europe / the Baltics share the same high prevalence of this mutation. It is not a special genetic feature of Lithuanians. For those reasons I suggest to remove the sentence altogether. SPLETTE :] ^{How's my driving?} 23:28, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

References

I went ahead and removed it. I agree with your points that the statement is somewhat misleading and largely trivial. I furthermore would note that the 16% statistic for Lithuanian population is not in the article as a statement but only as part of an approximate distribution map from which it's difficult to tell even the approximate number for Lithuania (the Lithuanian teritory is in both 16% and 14% zones).No longer a penguin (talk) 16:33, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. If new information comes up about this particular mutation, I think it will be better placed in the CCR5 article with the proper context rather than as a piece of trivial information in other articles. SPLETTE :] ^{How's my driving?} 01:59, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

The gallery of personalities from the infobox

I invite everybody to post their opinions at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ethnic_groups#The_necessity_of_galleries_of_personalities_in_the_infoboxes Hahun (talk) 15:42, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

RfC can be found here Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ethnic groups#Proposal for the deletion of all the galleries of personalities from the articles about ethnic groups. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 02:13, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

1991 article

"Since the Neolithic period the native inhabitants of the Lithuanian territory have not been replaced by any other ethnic group, so there is a high probability that the inhabitants of present-day Lithuania have preserved the genetic composition of their forebears relatively undisturbed by the major demographic movements" based on a 1991 article. But we now know, that 46% of Lithuanian Y-DNA (haplogroup N) is much younger in the Baltic than Neolithic. --YOMAL SIDOROFF-BIARMSKII (talk) 19:22, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

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genetic heritage

present:

"A 2004 analysis of mtDNA in a Lithuanian population revealed that Lithuanians are close to both Indo-European and Uralic-speaking populations of Northern Europe. Y-chromosome SNP haplogroup analysis showed Lithuanians to be closest to Balts, Russians, Belarusians and Finnish people. <this source is lost in 2016 surce#[28] | This is added> Autosomal SNP analysis situates Lithuanians most proximal to Latvians, followed by the East Slavs, furthermore, all Slavic peoples and Germans are situated more proximal to Lithuanians than Finns and northern Russians.[32]"

i cant found higlighted thesis in sourced32 text. And there are rather opsite informations. qutes:

1 Latvians and Lithuanians, lie in the vicinity of Finno-Ugric-speaking Estonians according to their Y-chromosome diversity (Fig 2B), whilst in their autosomal variation they are slightly shifted towards the group of East Slavic speakers (Fig 2A). Also, one finds Volga-Finnic Mordvins close to the two Baltic-speaking populations

2 Most West and East Slavs of Central-East Europe form genetically a compact group of populations that, as a general rule, differ from their western (Germanic-speaking) and eastern (Finno-Ugric-speaking) neighbors.

I propose delete words 'and Geramans' from this chapter as non non sourced inserted in this edit. 99.90.196.227 (talk) 06:35, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

new information

I found information about these people(Jaats),they are from the land where vedas were written, it suggests Sanskrit was first used there(which is closest language to Lithuanian) these people are also genetically close to eastern Europeans so i thought maybe there must be connection with Lithuanians. I hope you will consider reviewing it Genetics https://www.jatland.com/home/Lithuania

@Elvis.J700: Blog entries are not sources and most times they are just some fringe theories. You need academic sources for such claims. The same applies to your message at Talk:Romuva (religion)#Correction. – Sabbatino (talk) 05:29, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

That would be really hard considering many people(Including government) there always try to denounce Indo-European migration or invasion theories to prove their great vedic civilization had no influence from outside, But many reports are publicised again and again proving opposite,genetically Jats are closer to eastern Europeans and at some extent northern Gothics, Rajputs also shares genes with central Europeans and greeks, i have some pictures of old research, but Wikipedia won't let me upload since it's not my workElvis.J700 (talk) 09:59, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

Ethnic Poles paragraph under "Ethnic composition of Lithuania"

"However, it has only held 1 or 2 seats in the parliament of Lithuania for the past decade.": Electoral Action of Poles in Lithuania has held 8 seats in the Seimas since 2012, and held an average of 2.4 seats between 1992 and 2012 ([2] click "Seimas Plenary Chamber seating plan"). Additionally, it is currently part of the ruling coalition, and appears to have been previously.

"Due to the excessive pro-Pole political agenda": "excessive" seems like an inappropriately loaded language, but I'm not an expert on Wikipedia or Lithuania and defer to more experienced editors (I wouldn't have brought it up if not for the other mistakes in this paragraph)

Phizon (talk) 10:55, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

References

One of the oldest peoples ?

@Cukrakalnis: Since the process of ethnogenesis is a very complicated one, it is nearly impossible to claim that an ethnogenesis has taken place before the occurrence of written testimony. To claim the existence of a Lithuanian people in pre-historical times from genetical evidence is simply WP:OR.

The term "nation" is a complicated one, but because of its implications also a dangerous one (are those who are Lithuanian nationals, but don't self-identify as Lithuanians not members of the "nation" ?). It should therefore only be used if support by excellent sources.

That other articles are not perfect (with respect to MOS:INFOBOXFLAG or the use of the term "nation") is no reason to introduce the same faults to this article. Rsk6400 (talk) 06:48, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

WP:OR: ...material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist. A statement based on what was written in Richard C. Frucht's book "Eastern Europe: An Introduction to the People, Lands, and Culture" (as I had done) is not OR. Your statement is false.

WP:RS were provided for the claims about Lithuanians being a nation. Wikipedia rules make no provisions for removal of sourced statements based on personal qualms.

MOS:INFOBOXFLAG: Flag icons should only be inserted in infoboxes in those cases where they convey information in addition to the text. This is clearly the case here. The Lithuanian flag is, self-evidently, very relevant to an article about Lithuanians. Furthermore, dismissing GA articles as imperfect and going against the MOS and etc. seems very pretentious. GA articles are, by virtue of being GA, exemplary. If adding flags of a certain group to an infobox about that group as a whole are indeed infractions on Wiki MOS, then please remove the flags in the infoboxes of the articles on Canadians and British people, for the sake of all. Cukrakalnis (talk) 19:20, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for replying here. I didn't see the Frucht reference, so I have to apologize for calling it OR. I looked around a bit trying to find out who Frucht is, but didn't succeed. Still, I think we'd need a much better source than Frucht. A people normally needs to have a sense of identity and a sense of being different from other peoples in order to be called a "people". To claim such a thing thousands of years before the first written records seems to me WP:REDFLAG. Also, since Frucht doesn't seem to be an expert on Baltic prehistory, WP:RSCONTEXT should apply here. The text written at the beginning of the body, Over the centuries, and especially under the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, some of these tribes consolidated into the Lithuanian nation seems to me a much more convincing explanation of how Lithuanians became what they are.

The "nation": I don't object to using the term "Lithuanian nation", but the problem of your expression "a Baltic ethnic group and nation" is that it implies the identity of Lithuanian ethnic group and nation. For this identity I didn't see any sources, so this is OR, unless I'm mistaken again.

Regarding the flag: Icelanders, the Good Article you mentioned as an example for calling an ethnic group a "nation", doesn't have one. I can't see the additional bit of information contained in the flag. What kind of information is there "in addition to the text" ? Rsk6400 (talk) 07:10, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Richard Frucht, PhD, is a professor of history at Northwest Missouri State University, Maryville, MO (at the very bottom). A PhD who is a professor of history seems like an excellent source. That said, I think I understand what your main objections are, and will rephrase some parts, while adding more sources, to make it more precise, insofar as what is the current thought on the relevant matter.

Based on Cambridge Dictionary, the definition of nation that is relevant to us is: a large group of people of the same race who share the same language, traditions, and history, but who might not all live in one area:

• the Navajo nation

From that same dictionary, ethnicity: a large group of people with a shared culture, language, history, set of traditions, etc., or the fact of belonging to one of these groups:

• Ethnicity is not considered when reviewing applications.

There is a Lithuanian ethnicity. There is also a Lithuanian nation. Both are inextricably related. Regarding what you are saying about it implies the identity of Lithuanian ethnic group and nation, I am unsure about what are you objecting to. Regarding adding the word nation to the lead section, I had added three references (all of which you removed), which had the following quotes:

• Some scholars even envision a gloomy scenario of the extinction of Lithuanian language and nation over the next 100 years.
• The result of the Russification policy introduced by the government of Czar Nikolai I was not the withering of the Lithuanian nation and religion, but a convergence of nationality and Catholicism.
• The contemporary Lithuanian nation has grown out of Catholic Lithuania.

In the 1st quote, there is a clear connection between Lithuanian language and the Lithuanian nation. Regarding the 3rd quote, perhaps I should have also included that in the sentence just before, it is written: These two ethnic Lithuanian groups were divided by national border and by religion - Prussian Lithuanians were mostly Lutherans, while ethnic Lithuanians were mostly Catholics. I suppose that this would have made the connection between the Lithuanian ethnicity and nation far clearer to you.

Like with the Union Flag in the Good Article British people, the addition of the Flag of Lithuania to this article would add information about what is the symbol that Lithuanians identify with, which so far is not included or even mentioned anywhere in an article about them.

References

Cukrakalnis (talk) 21:34, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Regarding Frucht / "one of the oldest peoples": I already pointed to WP:REDFLAG and WP:RSCONTEXT.

Regarding nation: In Germany, where I live and where I'm teaching history, there has been an awful lot of philosophical, ethnological and political discussion about the relationship between "nation" (with various definitions), "ethnicity", "culture", and similar terms, starting in the early 19th century (or even earlier) and continuing up to this day. Since Lithuania has had productive intellectuals since many centuries ago, it would seem a miracle to me, had similar discussions not taken place among Lithuanians. I totally agree with you that we can speak of a "Lithunian nation", but I have very strong doubts that Lithuanians can be defined simply as a "nation" (without a further definition of the term "nation"), or that the "nation" is identical with the "ethnic group".

Regarding the information contained in the flag: That's not how I understand the word "information". In my understanding, adding a section on the meaning of the flag for Lithuanians would be the only way to add information about the flag to this article. Rsk6400 (talk) 08:19, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

Regardless whether Lithuanians are nation or just an ethnicity in this article, why do you keep on removing the flag? The Lithuanian Charter adopted by the diaspora communities of ETHNIC LITHUANIANS declared yellow, green and red as colours of a Lithuanian, this flag is also heavilly used by Lithuanian diaspora regardless of affinity/connection to the Republic of Lithuania. Dziugreb (talk) 14:01, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

I'd suggest you add a section about the Lithuanian Charter and / or the history of the flag. That section could be accompanied by any image of the flag. But since the flag contains no information, it should not be added to the infobox according to MOS:INFOBOXFLAG. Rsk6400 (talk) 07:35, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

What do you mean by 'flag contains no information'? Dziugreb (talk) 17:14, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

I was referring to the sentence in MOS:INFOBOXFLAG, Flag icons should only be inserted in infoboxes in those cases where they convey information in addition to the text. Since I don't see that the flag conveys information in addition to the text, I don't think the flag should be added here. Rsk6400 (talk) 18:34, 4 December 2022 (UTC)