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 | A fact from Little Joe Monahan appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 23 September 2017 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
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Birth name
editIn the Early life section, doubts seems to be raised about the actual birth name - but lead and figure captions state one name only, with apparent certainty. If doubts are real, at least there's no need to reiterate one of the possible bith name in both figure captions - even if it is the most likely one.--Nø (talk) 13:51, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
He or she?
editThe article reads as if the subject is clearly a woman though she pretended to be a man - so from this point of view, "he" is inappropriate. If we, on hte other hand, assume the suject is transgender, identifying as a man not just for convenience in a male dominated society but as a personal gender identity, "he" is appropriate from a modern perspective. I feel that in order to use "he", some (properly sourced) statements about gender identity would be needed. I imagine no such sources exist, leaving us with a bit of a problem here. I really don't know.--Nø (talk) 13:51, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
- It looks like male pronouns are used by the greater WP:WEIGHT of the sources, including those in the article:
- Boag 2005, Sudermann, Boag 2012, King 2013, and Skidmore 2017 all use only male pronouns
- Doyle 2003 uses female pronouns to refer to the historical Monahan before going West, and male pronouns afterwards
- Fisher 1968 and Venable 2013 use female pronouns, but only discuss Monahan briefly (a paragraph and a sentence, respectively)
- That's all the sources I can find, so it looks like the "he"s have it. FourViolas (talk) 15:51, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
- It's a good question and was raised in the DYK process too. I chose the pronoun that reflected the academic literature and the subject's personal preference. Seemed like those two were in alignment so it was good to go. Owlsmcgee (talk) 20:26, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks for the replies; they certainly make sense. I don't see the question as completely settled, but I understand "he" is the least objectionable choise at this point.--Nø (talk) 08:57, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
- I still think this is problematic. To make sense of the lead it stands (without/before reading the rest of the article), one has to deduce from "assumed masculine identity" that his sex was actually and truly female - otherwise, what was "revealed"? I may not fully understand current distinctions between "gender" and "sex", but to make sense of the lead, I think it should state explicitly that he was assigned female sex at birth, and the same at death, but that he most of his life identified (and lived and worked) as male.
- (Also, I suppose the concept of trans person was unknown to him and his contemporaries, making it difficult to discuss his gender identity in modern terms. Without a concept of trans person, there may have been no other way to describe the situation - for him and his contemporaries - than to consider him a fraud. But without sources showing his own perception of his situation, it is very difficult to go anywhere with this in the article.) Nø (talk) 10:44, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for the replies; they certainly make sense. I don't see the question as completely settled, but I understand "he" is the least objectionable choise at this point.--Nø (talk) 08:57, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
- It's a good question and was raised in the DYK process too. I chose the pronoun that reflected the academic literature and the subject's personal preference. Seemed like those two were in alignment so it was good to go. Owlsmcgee (talk) 20:26, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
Missing pages
edit@Owlsmcgee: Hi, there are several books cited that do not indicate the pages. Do you have them? If so, let me know if you need help adding them. MX (✉ • ✎) 17:24, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
- I will work on this now, thanks. Owlsmcgee (talk) 21:08, 23 September 2017 (UTC)