Talk:Ljótólfr/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Malleus Fatuorum 17:44, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Nothing too serious, just a few places where I think the writing is unclear:

Lead

• "Several historians have considered Ljótólfr to be an ancestor of Clan MacLeod; one of these considered Ljótólfr to be the eponymous ancestor of the clan—a view which is no longer thought to be fact." Surely it was never thought to be fact, merely speculation?

• I changed the tail end to: although the current understanding of the clan's ancestry regards another man as the eponym.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 06:15, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Ljótólfr in the Orkneyinga saga

• "Until his death, Óláfr was one of several chieftains who supported Páll Hákonsson, Earl of Orkney, in a victorious sea battle against Ölvir, who led the opposing fleet in support of Rögnvaldr Kolsson[19] (who had been appointed the earl of half of Orkney by the King of Norway)." I can't quite make sense of this. How long did this battle last? A couple of sentences earlier, we were told that Olafr was burned to death inside his house, so how could he have been supporting anyone in a sea battle?

• Yeah, the events in these sentences weren't in order. Haha. I've put them in order now: One of the most prominent characters of the Orkneyinga saga is the Viking chieftain Sveinn Ásleifarson, who lived on the island of Gairsay, in Orkney. The saga relates how Sveinn's father, Óláfr Hrólfsson, was one of several chieftains who supported Páll Hákonsson, Earl of Orkney, in a victorious sea battle against Ölvir Rósta, who led the opposing fleet in support of Rögnvaldr Kolsson, who had been appointed the earl of half of Orkney by the King of Norway. Óláfr was later killed by Ölvir, who burned him to death within his own house. Ölvir was the grandson of Frakökk, an ambitious woman, portrayed as a villain in the saga. Frakökk attempted to win the Earldom of Orkney for her descendants—particularly Ölvir. That second sentence seems to long. How would you write that?--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 06:27, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

• "The saga relates how, for a time, Sveinn was outlawed in Orkney, and that for a time he lived in the Suðreyjar ...". This is a bit unclear; did he stay in Suðreyjar while he was outlawed in Orkney, or after his "outlawing" was over?

• The story is that Sveinn murdered a follower of the earl. He then fled to the bishop (who approved of the killing), and the bishop kept Sveinn over the Yule-tide, and then sent him into the care of the Hebridean chief. The earl waited the winter for Sveinn to come to him in person, but when Sveinn failed to show, the earl outlawed him. I've changed a couple sentences: The saga relates how in Orkney, Sveinn murdered one of the earl's followers, and immediately fled to the Bishop of Orkney. The bishop protected Sveinn by sending him away to the Suðreyjar, into the care of Holdboði Hundason, a chieftain on the Inner Hebridean island of Tiree. More specific now.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 06:08, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

• "Sometime later, Sveinn and his men were attacked by their former allies". Who were these former allies? This is the first we hear of any allies.

• Sveinn was attacked by Holdboði. I've added his name.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 06:01, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

• "In lieu of this, Haraldr banished Gunni from the earldom ...". What does "in lieu of" mean here?

• Whoops, it shouldn't say that. The sentence is supposed to show that Haraldr banished Gunni, because of how close Gunni was to his mother. I've reworked the beginning of the sentence: Because of this relationship with his mother, Haraldr banished Gunni from the earldom, and enmity arose between Sveinn and the earl.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 06:00, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

• "Later, the saga states that Sveinn's brother, Gunni Óláfsson, had children with Margrét Hákonardóttir ...". This "later" is slightly ambiguous here. Does it mean later in the apparently chronological story being told in this section, or simply later in the saga, which may not be in chronological sequence at all for all the reader knows.

• I changed to beginning of the sentence to Further on in the saga, it is stated that Sveinn's brother, Gunni Óláfsson, had children with ... Is that any better? The events in the article, are in the order they appear in the saga. I'm going to look for specific dates though, maybe someone has dated some this events that the article is presenting. There's a pretty big gap in between the part about the Gunni and the mother, and the previous stuff with Sveinn and Holdboði (lots of events happened between these two particular events). But I'm not exactly sure how much time passed.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 06:41, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

• Ok, I've added some footnotes, where an historian has dated specific events. Unfortunately, the Gunni/Margrét thing isn't pinned down to a date. I assume it must have happened before the following bit on Fugl and Sveinn, which is dated to 1154. That's about all I know though.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:24, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Links to Clan MacLeod

• "However, today the accepted understanding is that the clan's eponymous ancestor is a man named Leod ...". Why is the wikilink to the phrase "a man called Leod" rather than just Leod?

• I had figured that if only the name was wikilinked, then it'd look like the link would shoot to an article on the name, rather than a specific person. I've changed the sentence: However, today the accepted understanding is that the clan's eponymous ancestor is another man, Leod, who flourished about a century after Ljótólfr.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 05:58, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

• "... the first, liút, is derived from the Germanic word meaning 'light, shining'". Does the word mean "light, shining", or "light", "shining"?

• I think it should be the "light", "shining". Fixed.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 06:19, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

• "Morrison even suggested that Leod's name could have been derived from him." From who? Looks like Morrison is suggesting that Leod's name could have been derived from his own name the way it's written.

• The sentence should show the suggestion that Leod's name could have come from Ljótólfr (the man). I switched "him" to "Ljótólfr".--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 06:48, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

• "One of the men put forward by Thomas was Þórketill Þórmóðsson ...". Put forward for what?

• The sentence just prior to this one is about how Thomas noted the two names, and how he realised that two men with these names had Lewis connections in a particular saga. One of these men was Þórketill. I guess by 'put forward' I meant 'singled out'. Maybe there's no need for that though. What I've done is, I've removed the "put forward" part, and reworked both sentences. So now its: Thomas noted that these names were also those of two men with Lewis connections, who are both recorded in the 13th-century kings' saga Hákonar saga Hákonarsonar. One of these men was Þórketill Þórmóðsson, who according to the saga, was slain near the Isle of Skye in about the year 1230.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 05:58, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Article title

• Because this title contains characters not on a standard English keyboard, you should set up a redirect for Ljotolfr to this article, as done for Tomas O Fiach, for instance.

• Ok, done.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 05:49, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

This review is now on hold for up to seven days to allow time for these issues to be addressed. Malleus Fatuorum 13:39, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

OK, I've addressed everything you brought up. I think I need some help with the first point under Ljótólfr in the Orkneyinga saga.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:32, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

I've shortened and slightly rejigged the sentence you were concerned about; everything looks fine to me now. Malleus Fatuorum 13:53, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.