Talk:Llancaiach Fawr

Needs renaming

Llancaiach Fawr is obviously the name of a church or parish (you would not expect to find a house named "Llan-"). The website itself calls it "Llancaiach Fawr Manor House" (OK, you'll also find "Llancaiach Fawr" as shorthand on the site). Perhaps someone with local knowledge can enlighten us about the parish/church? It's obviously called "Fawr" to distinguish it from another Llancaiach (Welsh: Llangaiach). Suggest the page should be moved to Llancaiach Fawr Manor House. Enaidmawr (talk) 00:01, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Requested move 28 April 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 23:10, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

---

Llancaiach Fawr → Llancaiach Fawr Manor – I feel this is a more natural name, as it indicates that this is a former dwelling rather than anything else (which I think it useful when templates such as Template:Museums and art galleries in Wales use article names without any description). I also think it's more consistent with how other historic houses are named on Wikipedia (such as in Category:Manor houses in England).

Looking at Google's book ngram viewer, "Llancaiach Fawr Manor" was unheard of before 1989, but quickly gained in use, and has become more common than "Llancaiach Fawr" in the last decade or so.

I haven't checked page view statistics, as WikiNav gave "An error occurred" across the board, and I don't know of anything else which reports how someone reached an article.

There is an old comment on the talk page which suggested "Llancaiach Fawr Manor House", but the name the official page uses when you first visit it is the one I suggested, and I haven't found any other evidence of the longer name being used. I also notice that someone changed the opening sentence in 2014 to use the title I've suggested, and it seems to have remained unchanged since.

Regarding the other "article title" criteria, my suggested name is less concise than the current title, and is no more precise (at least, I don't know of anything else which could reasonably be meant by either name). Aoeuidhtns (talk) 23:21, 28 April 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 00:17, 6 May 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. EggRoll97 ^(talk) 00:24, 13 May 2023 (UTC)— Relisting. >>> Extorc.talk 18:11, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject United Kingdom has been notified of this discussion. EggRoll97 ^(talk) 00:25, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Wales has been notified of this discussion. EggRoll97 ^(talk) 00:25, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Architecture has been notified of this discussion. EggRoll97 ^(talk) 00:25, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Oppose move - Colloquially it tends to be known as Llancaiach Fawr in the local area but I appreciate this is anecdotal evidence. Some news articles (particularly more local or Wales specific news) tend to refer to it as Llancaiach Fawr and so WP:CommonName would apply. See examples of "Llancaiach Fawr" used;

• 10 things you may not have known about Llancaiach Fawr as it celebrates 25 years as a tourist attraction
• Urdd Eisteddfod 2015: What do you know about Llancaiach Fawr?
• 'Absolutely brilliant' Llancaiach Fawr awarded TripAdvisor Certificate of Excellence
• Art exhibition at Llancaiach Fawr
• Pirate festival coming to Llancaiach Fawr
• Doctor Who to showcase Llancaiach Fawr
• New play area opens at Llancaiach Fawr
• Day out: Turn back the clock at Llancaiach Fawr

Titus Gold (talk) 01:50, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Your links don't appear to me to back your statement up all that well. Looking through them, I see that:

• The Wales Online articles all call the house "Llancaiach Fawr Manor" in the opening sentence.
• The South Wales Argus article calls it "Llancaiach Fawr Manor House" in the opening sentence.
• Three of the four Caerphilly Observer articles use "Llancaiach Fawr Manor" at some point; one in the opening sentence, one when they quote a member of staff and one in the caption to a picture.

All three souces refer to it as Llancaiach Fawr within an article, but, like the headlines, that may be intended as shorthand, in the same way reporters might refer to Balmoral, Sandringham or Windsor.

WP:COMMONNAME seems to be a question of numbers, and I don't know where to find those other than the book ngram page.

Something I've looked at since my original post is the guidelines for the WikiProjects listed at the top of this talk page.

• WP:Museum prefers the current, formal title for the museum.
• WP:Architecture#Help for authors prefers the common name.
• WP:WALES recommends the MOS: in its entirety.
• I couldn't see a reference to guidelines on the WP:PARA or WP:UK main pages, so I don't know if they have a policy.
• I've ignored WP:ENGLAND; does it belong here at all?

I feel the Museum guidelines are the most relevant, as they're intended for buildings with staff there to help visitors. This article doesn't follow them in other ways, however. Aoeuidhtns (talk) 14:17, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

• Weak Oppose - the evidence for usage of the longer title is reasonably convincing, and most telling is that this is how they describe themselves on their web page, but per Titus Gold, there is plenty of evidence that the shorter name remains in use as a common name too. I am not convinced either name is clearly the common name, in the way that some other manors (Haling Manor, Croham Manor, Taunton Manor to take some random examples) would be. So then, per MOS:TITLE, we should favour the more succinct title. That is Llancaiach Fawr. I think the matter is finely balanced - so not surprised there is limited engagement here. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 15:37, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose the Ordnance Survey and Cadw use this name. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:50, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

References

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.