Talk:Llangybi, Monmouthshire

Tregrug Castle

This needs its own article, with the over-lengthy footnote incorporated into the new article text. Any offers? Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:53, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

I'd wholeheartedly offer to agree with you. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:54, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

 Done Now split off. Please review and adjust as necessary. Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:19, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Trial of Josef Garcia at Usk Sessions House

Although a published book is cited as the source of this information, it would seem to me to be inherently unlikely. Any capital offence, such as murder, would have to be tried before a High Court Judge at the Assizes, and the Monmouthshire Assizes were generally held in Monmouth (see Mansion House, Newport for a discussion of this). The Usk Sessions House was built to house the Court of Quarter Sessions for Monmouthshire, which could not impose the death penalty. Unless, exceptionally, the Usk Sessions House was temporarily being used for a sitting of the Assizes, the trial would have taken place in Monmouth. It would appear that Garcia was hanged in Usk Prison, so this may have given rise to an erroneous assumption that he was tried in Usk.Ntmr (talk) 17:56, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

That book is not available for preview online, so I guess one would need to see a print copy to verify. There is more detail in the 2004 newspaper report here, but it mentions Usk only once: "As he was being released from Usk prison, Spanish sailor Joseph Garcia ran away from guards while they collected his papers. The next day he killed an entire family in their home two miles away." This source says Garcia was charged in Caerleon and "The anger following the murders in the area was huge and the trial had to be held in Gloucester Shire Hall to reduce the chances of a riot". Martinevans123 (talk) 18:36, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

I suspect that an editor may have seen this, and misunderstood. A talk about the murders was held in the Sessions House, Usk, in 2019 - not the trial itself. It should be corrected. Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:42, 29 April 2022 (UTC) PS: I hereby blame the editor responsible for this edit.... Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:46, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

It's obvious that he never read the book... Shameful (but he tells me he's never seen that advert for the talk before). Martinevans123 (talk) 18:55, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

PPS: However.... this Usk Town Council page states specifically that: "While many cases heard at the Usk Quarter Sessions were routine, those of Viscountess Rhondda (a prominent suffragette) and of Josef Garcia, convicted of the murder of a family of five in Llangybi, became notorious." So, the idiot experienced but foolhardy editor who just removed the claim may need to eat his words. Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:50, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

What about the idiot who thinks it was held at Gloucester Shire Hall? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:56, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

There seems to be a spot of confusion. Do we trust Torfaen Museum or Usk Town Council? Should have gone to the talk.... Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:01, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Here's a book source from Foul Deeds & Suspicious Deaths in Newport by Terry Underwood (2004) [1]. He says Garcia was charged in Newport and then sent to Usk to await trial, and also that the trial was "in Gloucestershire". Martinevans123 (talk) 19:07, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

"The trial of Joseph Garcia began on October 30 1878, at the Gloucester Assizes." Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:04, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

"He was hanged on Monday, November 18th, 1878, at Usk Prison." Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:07, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Here's the newspaper report at the time. Clearly the trial took place in Gloucester. Could there have been an earlier hearing in Usk? Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:16, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

The Underwood source is quite detailed but makes no mention of that. I think Usk Town Council may have have been a bit bold there. But yes, I would have expected some kind of committal proceedings at a lower court, even a Magistrate's Court. Not very notable. The council just says "cases heard" at the Usk Quarter Sessions, so technically that's probably true. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:27, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

”even a Magistrate’s Court” - can you get any lower! KJP1 (talk) 20:35, 29 April 2022 (UTC) J.P.

Probably down under. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:58, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

There would certainly have been a committal hearing before a Magistrates' Court (which at the time was generally called a Police court), and this would typically have been held in the courthouse for the Petty Sessional Division in which the crime allegedly occurred. Usk Sessions House was the courthouse for the Quarter Sessions for the whole county. As its name suggests, hearings were held once (or for a few consecutive days) each quarter. It is possible that the Quarter Sessions House was also used to hold the Petty Sessions for the Usk Division when it was not needed for the Quarter Sessions, though this is speculation on my part.Ntmr (talk) 13:38, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Magistrates' court (England and Wales) says this, under "Jurisdiction and sentencing powers": "In criminal matters, magistrates' courts (formerly known as a police courts in London, and petty sessions elsewhere) in England and Wales...", although it's not actually sourced. I think your probably right about the Usk courthouse being used as a Magistrates Court and for all the sessions. And of course, like any local courts, it had the cells adjacent. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:14, 30 April 2022 (UTC)