Talk:Logan (Iroquois leader)

Latinization?

'Tachnedorus'? This looks like a Latinisation. Is there evidence for this being his actual name? Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 20:39, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

In Blue Jacket, John Sugden writes: "John Logan (whose Indian name was Tachnechdorus, meaning Spreading Out)..." (p. 276). I notice Sugden spells it differently from the standard "Tachnedorus", so maybe I'll change that in the article, since I'd regard his version as pretty reliable. I don't know if Logan has an entry in the American National Biography series, but if he does, whatever name is given there might be regarded as the most authoritative rendition, unless another enthohistorian has since weighed in. --Kevin Myers 21:04, Apr 2, 2005 (UTC)

All I have to go in are my intutition that this is a Latinisation, and the fact that Google has about five hits for 'Tachnedorius', and pages for 'Tah-gah-jute'. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:09, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Alas, such is the state of American Indian history on the Internet, which is often based on history written before American Indian history was studied for its own sake, rather than as an addendum to Euro-American history, or as romanticized history (which is still as popular as ever). "Tah-gah-jute" was popularized in an 1867 book; since old texts are public domain, snippets from them tend to appear all over the place, regardless of current scholarship. (Personally, I regard the Internet as an unreliable source of historical information, and close to worthless when it comes to American Indian history.) That being said, you still may be right about "Tachnedorus" being a Latinisation; a phonetic rendering of his name might not have been preserved. I'll certainly keep my eye out for more info. --Kevin Myers 22:51, Apr 2, 2005 (UTC)

name

his name may be talgayeeta

The name Talgayeeta, like that of Toonay, also cited in the Yellow Creek Massacre section, are from the modern historical fiction writings of Allen Eckert and are not found in any document that predates the 1960's. TruthBastion (talk) 15:08, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

why does the article title use the term "chief"?

Is there any evidence, anywhere, that suggests that Logan held the title of "chief" in any sense whatsoever, other than in the eyes of white people who simply assumed he was a chief because they didn't know any better? As the article points out, historian Richard White states unequivocally that Logan was not a chief. I don't know what grounds White has for saying that (his explanation is flawed, and his footnote doesn't help), but I also don't know of any evidence demonstrating that White is wrong.

And apart from the question of whether Logan actually was a chief, is it appropriate to use "Chief" as part of his name in the article title? After all, wikipedia entries on US Presidents are not entitled "President so-and-so."

I don't know how to change an article title, but I strongly suggest cutting the word "Chief" from it. If someone has reason to believe that the title is appropriate, it should be spelled out in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Neurotic Nerd (talk • contribs) 06:26, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

It looks like this article was named "Chief Logan" because "Logan" was already used as an article title. However, the article "Logan" is just a disambiguation page—there's actually no article called "Logan"—so I've moved to old page to Logan (disambiguation) and requested an administrator to move the mis-titled "Chief Logan" to simply "Logan". I've been meaning to do this for some time, but there's always so much to do. Thanks for bringing it up. —Kevin Myers 13:36, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

 Done —Kevin Myers 15:37, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Removed extraneous material beyond scope of the article It's reading better with the latest edits.

I've taken liberty to include a couple paragraghs about the Captain Logan letter. Remove any or all as one feels, no offense will be taken... thankyou kindly for your attention. Conaughy (talk) 15:22, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

June 2008

Ya that's right that logan was a leader.But there is another mean is also for this word...A mountain peak in the St. Elias Range in the southwestern Yukon Territory in Canada (19,850 feet high).....that is also named as logan...so i think by these two example we can understand better,what logan actually means ??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bishnoimunda (talk • contribs) 12:16, June 5, 2008

That would be Mount Logan, which readers can find by following the Logan (disambiguation) link. —Kevin Myers 12:46, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Move?

I moved the article back to Logan from where it had been moved without discussion, (it was at Logan (American Indian leader)). I also restored the dab link at the top of the article. I prefer it at just "Logan", but think this should be discussed here before any moves are made. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 02:31, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Problems with Logan the Mingo page...

There are a lot of errors as well as unreferenced and undocumented (undocumentable?) content on this page. I am new to Wiki editing. Do you prompt previous contributors to either supply real references or remove their work? Do I need to challenge each bad part, piece by piece? If they don't supply references, do I simply remove the content? I am just not clear on how interactive with previous contributors the process here is supposed to be. I don't want to step on toes, I just want to see factual information presented. TruthBastion (talk) 15:38, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Welcome! On a page like this where there are statements with no references to reliable sources, I would be BOLD and correct errors with correct text backed up by refs to reliable sources. If there are things you disagree with that are referenced, I would raise it on the talk page for the article (like this) and perhaps also on the user's talk page. It is good to check their contributions to see if they are still active. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 17:06, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, go ahead and fix obvious errors and request citations for statements you are unsure about. I haven't looked at this article for some time, but a lot of information appears to have been recently introduced that is not in the listed sources. Obvious errors were introduece at some point too. For example, that article used to say "Logan was probably not at the Battle of Point Pleasant", but someone removed the "not", changing the entire meaning. You already fixed that, so you're on the right track. —Kevin Myers 20:05, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Kevin Myers is correct that Logan was not at the Battle of Point Pleasant, and through the best of my research, he was not at Camp Charlotte at which place the Shawnee meet with Dunmore to begin the "Treat". There has been a quite a bit of writing in the form of legend concerning this period in our area surfacing in the 19th century. It's challenging to sort through which is documentable. Such is it difficult to find documents to discover credence in oral traditions, a few tellings have some element as plausible and others not so. Historians conjecturing or studying among themselves material of the research preceeds writing "the paper" and a some things make not the print. It's as a historian once said, "If in doubt, leave it out...", maybe Conaughy (talk) 01:07, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Yellow Creek Massacre Section

"==Yellow Creek massacre== Logan's friendly relations with white ? changed with the Yellow Creek Massacre of 30 April 1774, in which a group of Virginia frontiersmen led by Daniel Greathouse murdered about 21 Mingos, among them Logan's mother, daughter, brother, nephew, sister, and cousin, at the mouth of Yellow Creek, near present-day Wellsville, Ohio along the Ohio River. Logan's daughter, Toonay, was heavily pregnant and nearly ready to give birth at the time of the massacre. She had been tortured while alive and disemboweled. Her fetus was ripped from her body and both, she and the fetus,scalped. The rest of the Mingos were also scalped. Logan longed for revenge. Scalping, according to Native Americans beliefs, meant that war had been declared. "

This version of the events of the Yellow Creek massacre appears to be largely paraphrased from the historical fiction writings of A.W. Eckert, or other fictional sources, and not the actual eyewitness accounts of the period. One clue is the use of the name "Toonay", which is believed to have been invented by Eckert. Also, Logan's mother died in an epidemic during the 1740's, and there is no period evidence to suggest a nephew or daughter were killed in the massacre. Logan's younger brother, known to the Euro-Americans as "John Petty" was killed, along with two female relatives variously identified in period documents. When these women are identified as his "mother" or "sister", it is within the context of Iroquoian kinship terms, and not the biological sense that European Americans used. In addition to the other factual errors, the statement "Scalping, according to Native Americans beliefs, meant that war had been declared.", is not only I believe historically incorrect, but a bit off logically. I believe the killing of your people, not their scalping after death, is sufficient evidence that war had been declared. Should this section be removed pending a more historically and factually based account being found or compiled to replace it? TruthBastion (talk) 07:52, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Could the section be replaced with a few sentences for now - I like Logan's younger brother, known to the Euro-Americans as "John Petty" was killed, along with two female relatives variously identified in period documents. When these women are identified as his "mother" or "sister", it is within the context of Iroquoian kinship terms, and not the biological sense that European Americans used. (yours, above) It also seems to me that this article needs a "In popular culture" section where the Eckert portrayal and its inaccuracies is addressed, as well as any other portrayals in fiction. I have seen the Eckert books and seem to recall that he claimed they were all factual (this should be addressed in any case). Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 12:55, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Ruhrfisch, If you check WIKI's own page on Eckert, under "criticism", you will see a small part of the problem with his work. Some of his writing on Logan I was able to trace to 19th century historical fiction works that he had used as source material. I spoke to him personally about his sources once, and he basically said that he did his primary research on most of this in the 1950's and no longer had his notes. Some of what he has written on Logan more recently, including the introduction of fictional characters such as Toonay, and renaming of Logan as "Talygeeta", etc., he had no response for. I can only assume that they are either complete fabrications of his own, or he trusted some unreliable, unpublished source. I admire him as a writer and storyteller, I only question him as a historian. TruthBastion (talk) 14:49, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Ruhrfisch, Two other related pages, the "Mingo" and "Dunmore's War", need a tremendous amount of work as well. You may want to take a peek at them as well if you are interested. TruthBastion (talk) 14:55, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Sorry to be unclear - I meant that there will be people who have read Eckert's works and come to this and other articles and it would help to note here the inaccuracies in those books (not everyone will look at Allan W. Eckert). I am more interested in Shikellamy and have this on my watchlist, but added {{Accuracy}} to the two artickes mentioned. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 18:29, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

I read over the Shikellamy entry and found no obvious errors. The only thing missing was an acknowledgement of Shikellamy's European ancestry. He clearly told Bartram, and the the Moravians that he was French Canadian by birth. The fact that Logan was several times described by eyewitnesses as light skinned or of mixed blood would appear to be confirmation of Shikellamy's claim. Otherwise, the section appears to be well documented. Were there particular areas you were questioning? Perhaps I missed something. TruthBastion (talk) 22:59, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Please, no Eckert information.

I removed the Eckert description of the Yellow Creek massacre. The Logan page is still in need of lots of help from reliable sources, please no more Eckert made up names and narrative. This was also added to the Daniel Greathouse page. If the contributer who posted it here and there reads this, could you please remove the Eckert information there as well. See Wiki's own entry for Eckert to see part of the problem with using him as a source. TruthBastion (talk) 23:41, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

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Plagiarism?

The section Logan_(Iroquois_leader)#Logan's_revenge is an almost word-for-word match of a paragraph from Touring Ohio. With no citations, it's impossible to tell whether a Wikipedia editor stole this from a website, or whether the website copied this from Wikipedia. Canute (talk) 17:23, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

If a text is stolen word-for-word, it will arrive wholesale in the edit history in one edit. If it is iteratively-written Wikipedia content, previous versions will show the text evolving. We can look, for example, at this version from 2008 where we see the paragraph in a different, but clearly earlier form. The current paragraph in its current form mostly dates from 2009. The tourism website is a copy of Wikipedia. -- Finlay McWalter··–·Talk 17:55, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for looking into that. Canute (talk) 18:25, 19 April 2023 (UTC)