Talk:Logres
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Spelling
editOut of curiosity, what's the basis for the spellings Logres and Logris? I know Loegria from Geoffrey of Monmouth (and of course from Welsh Lloegr...). Q·L·1968 ☿ 18:53, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
- I don't know, but the spelling does appear frequently. I want to say it's French.--Cúchullain t/c 19:27, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
I believe Logres (spelled as such) appears first in Chrétien de Troyes' Perceval, where it is used as a rhyme for "ogres".RandomCritic (talk) 20:28, 5 July 2011 (UTC)- Sorry, the above is wrong; "Logres" already appears as such in Wace's Roman de Brut, which is probably the earliest instance of the word in French, unless it appears in Gaimar.RandomCritic (talk) 20:52, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
England?
editThe Welsh word Lloegr or Lloegyr specifically refers to England, or at least the part of Southeast Britain occupied by Anglo-Saxons in the Middle Ages. Our article Lloegyr does list some sources that define it more restrictively as lower Great Britain south of the Humber, but I'm not convinced by this. Y Gododdin refers to both Lloegyr and Lloegrwys in the context of the Anglo-Saxon enemy, though they are in northern England. In the Welsh Triads, both Edwin of Northumbria and Aethelfrith of Northumbria are referred to as kings of Lloegyr, though they were obviously both from north of the Humber.
At any rate, it's not something we need to get into deep detail about here. "Logres" is a romanticized land that features primarily in French and continental literature; its connection to its origins is not particularly strong.Cúchullain t/c 15:22, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not denying that Loegria/Logres means "England", in a general sense, or that the Welsh word is an exact correspondent to all the modern senses of "England". But in Geoffrey, and other authors of Arthurian romance -- as late as Malory -- Arthur's kingdom occupies a more restricted area than the post-Conquest England, excluding the North, the Welsh Marches, Cornwall and probably much of Devon as well. (Continental authors understandably had a much vaguer notion of British geography.) RandomCritic (talk) 20:34, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
- Well, Geoffrey isn't consistent about the boundaries of Loegria. For example, in Book 2 when Britain is divided up by the sons of Brutus, he implies Loegria includes nearly all of England, as it includes everything east of the Severn and south of Scotland. Other passages describe kings of Loegria doing things north of the Humber, such as Ebraucus. But twice, in Book 3 and Book 4, he gives the Humber as the northern border of Loegria (not with Alba). In a number of places he also describes Cornwall as a separate unit from Loegria.
- The chroniclers tend to follow Geoffrey. In the romances and the prose cycles, which are where the term "Logres" chiefly appears, the geography is fanciful and even less consistent. Malory rarely uses the term "Logres"; he typically uses "England" for what his sources call "Logres".--Cúchullain t/c 21:18, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
- Well, Geoffrey isn't consistent about the boundaries of Loegria. For example, in Book 2 when Britain is divided up by the sons of Brutus, he implies Loegria includes nearly all of England, as it includes everything east of the Severn and south of Scotland. Other passages describe kings of Loegria doing things north of the Humber, such as Ebraucus. But twice, in Book 3 and Book 4, he gives the Humber as the northern border of Loegria (not with Alba). In a number of places he also describes Cornwall as a separate unit from Loegria.
Pronunciation
editAnyone know about the pronunciation? N.B. This word is also missing from Wiktionary. PJTraill (talk) 18:53, 29 November 2013 (UTC)