Talk:Longhunter

Please note as a direct descendant and researcher of the Wallin/Wallen family, DNA has proven we are all from the same line. Census takers guessed at spelling as did many of the actual persons. These guys being back woodsmen, rarely could read and write. Hence they even guessed at the spelling of their surname

Elisha Wallen

The text currently gives "In 1761, Elisha Walden (sometimes spelled "Wallen")..." The surname is usually given as "Wallen". Common alternatives include "Wallin" and "Walling". Elisha is identified in Redd's Narratives as "Wallen". Emory Hamilton, a well known writer on the history of Southwest Virginia, quotes Redd as saying:

Redd says that when he knew Wallen on Smith's River in Pittsylvania County in 1774, he was then some forty years old and had been a long hunter for many years before. That he usually hunted on a range of mountains lying on the east of Powell's Valley and from Wallen the mountain took its name. Wallen described the ridge and surrounding country on which he hunted as abounding in almost every known specie of game. The animals and birds had been intruded on so seldom that they did not fear his presence, but rather regarded him as a benefactor, but soon learned to flee from his presence.

See Robinson Cousin Homestead for a transcription of Hamilton's 1970 article on the Long Hunters.

Most genealogists give the surname as "Wallen", but there seems to be a concensus that his father gave his surname as "Walling". "Wallin" is a rare variant in primary documentation/records for SW VA. I have encountered "Walden" only in Summers, 1903, but even there the name is corrected in the errata to "Wallen". Some transcriptions of Redd's Narrative also use the Walden spelling, but I've not seen the original on which that is based. Bill 15:33, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I have encountered Walden, Wallen, Walling, Wallin, and Waller. The WPA Guide to Tennessee (p. 45) spells it "Walden." Folmsbee, et al. in Tennessee: A Short History (p. 50) uses "Walden." Williams in Dawn of the Tennessee Valley uses "Walden," but in parentheses has "Walling" (p. 321). Ramsey and Haywood use "Wallen" (both are probably using Redd as a source). Goodspeed uses "Walling" and claims that both Walden and Wallen are corruptions. I went with "Walden" since a. it's the name that "stuck" with Walden Ridge, and b.) the Folmsbee source was a Univ. of Tennessee publication (and more recent), whereas the rest were scattered local and early histories. Bms4880 (talk) 18:42, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

The sources you are citing are, of course, "Tennessee sources", and secondary in nature. However, primary sources for southwest VA e.g., land records, court records, etc. almost always use the "Wallen spelling". Redd, a good first person primary source, does apparently use "Walden", but if the transcription I've seen is accurate, you can't make much of a case for how a name should be spelled (e.g, "Pitsolvania" for I assume "Spottsylvania"). An incomplete sampling of standard sources for Southwest Virginia can be found at

the WeRelate Wiki

In southwest Virginia the ridge named after Elisha is spelled "Wallen's Ridge". Ditto the Creek "Wallens Creek". GNIS shows "Wallens Ridge" and "Walden's Ridge" as distinct entitites. Though it gives "Wallen's" as an AKA for Walden's, its clear that the Wallen's Ridge in VA and the Walden's Ridge in TN, are separate entities. (The entry for Wallen's Ridge shows it to lie in Lee, Clairborne, Union and Hancock Counties---Walden Ridge, however is shown in none of these counties). I suppose "Walden's Ridge" in TN COULD be named after Elisha, but I don't know that it was. I've seen items on the net saying that it was named for Elisha Walden, but I've also seen items saying it was named for "John Walling" in the early nineteenth century, as well as for "Elisha Wallen". None of the sites I've seen are better than tertiary sources on this point.

For me, the definitive evidence in favor of "Wallen" are the land records of Washington County.... See Rhonda Robertson's transcriptions My search engine gives 27 hits on that page for "Wallen", 31 for Wallin, 7 for Walling, and none for Walden. To be sure, most of the hits are for place names (Wallen's Ridge, Wallen's Creek, etc.), but there are a number for "XYZ Wallen" including the following item for Elisha

Page 174 - Adam Hope...400 ac...Commissioners Certificate...on the northwest side of Holstein River...Beginning on the southeast side of the knobs and on a branch called the Dry Run...on the bank of the Fifteen Mile Creek...corner with Samuel Montgomery...on William Duffs line...in a gap...on northeast side of the Fifteen Mile Creek in the gap...June 12, 1782 - Adam Hope, assignee of Robert Gamble, assignee of Elisha Wallen...400 ac...on the Fifteen Mile Creek...340 ac surveyed on January 28, 1774, includes improvements, actual settlement made in 1769...August 25, 1781

This parcel was settled by an "Elisha Wallen" in 1769, when the area was first opened to settlement. While there are at least three Elisha Wallens in SW Virginia around the time of the Revolution, only the one known as the Long Hunter would have been an adult in 1769, the others being either his son, or nephews. This particular parcel is located somewhere on the North fork of the Clinch, and is probably between Rye Cove and Powell's Valley---I'm guessing it was on the Hunter's trail that led from the Clinch to Powell's Valley and the Cumberland Gap area, and it was along this trail that the Long Hunters commonly entered Powell's Valley---the other entry main entryway was along what became the "Wilderness Road". It would be sensible for Elisha to have estabished a homesite in this area as it gave access both to the hunting grounds of Powell's Valley and thence west into KY and south into TN, and east along the Hunter's Trail to the Clinch River settlements (e.g., Castle's Woods.) Bill 01:59, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Did Elisha sign any of the Washington land records above? Unless we have his signature or his own spelling, I don't see any reason to change it to Wallen, especially based on county land records, which appear just as confused as to the spelling. Washington County is one single county, and even then, I only see "Elisha Wallen" twice in her entire transcription. On the genealogy page, I only see two old secondary sources, the Washington Co. survey record, and a newspaper article showing the name "Elisha Wallen" (and this on a Wallen family genealogy page). There is nothing that "definitively" points to Wallen as the correct spelling. If anything, it appears his family didn't have a choice spelling of their surname in the 18th century. If you have a record with Elisha's signature, or something in which Elisha personally spelled it "Wallen," feel free to change the spelling in the article. Bms4880 (talk) 15:41, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Addendum: There is no mention of Elisha or the longhunters in Koontz' The Virginia Frontier, 1754-1763 or Isaac's The Transformation of Virginia, 1740-1790, so imagine there is no mention in the state's macro histories. The name "Waller" appears in Meade's Old Churches, Ministers, and Families of Virginia, but no mention of Wallen, Wallin, Walling, or Walden, or Elisha or his near relatives. In McDonald's Some Virginia Marriages, 1700-1799 (vol. 1-16), the names Wallen and Walling do not appear, but the names Waller and Walden appear several times. In Torrence's Virginia Wills and Administrations, 1632-1800, the names "Walden" and "Waller" appear several times, the name "Walling" appears once, and the name "Wallen" doesn't appear at all. Again, none of these names were connected to an Elisha or Elijah. Bms4880 (talk) 19:36, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

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The sources you are citing are at best secondary and probably tertiary in nature. (e.g., Ramsey, Goodspeed.) Similar sources for southwest Virginia use the "Wallen" spelling (e.g, Addington, Hamilton, etc.), and have the advantage that the authors were tightly focused on the history of Southwest Virginia. Primary records for Southwest Virginia, contemporary with Elijah's activities in that area, (Courtrecords, land records, etc) for Southwest Virginia consistently use the "Wallen", "Walling" and "Wallin" variants for members of this family, include at least one such record for Elijah, and never use "Walden". Why would you reject primary sources in favor of secondary sources? Can you show a primary record that gives his name as "Walden" apart from Redd's Narrative? Bill 23:17, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

WHAT primary sources? You haven't shown a single primary source in which he spells it "Wallen". You've shown a county record and a few secondary sources from a Wallen genealogy site, and you somehow think that's "definitive". The name "Wallen" doesn't appear in any of the Virginia sources I listed above, whereas the name "Walden" appears multiple times. Do you have a source in which he spells his name "Wallen"? Why you put emphasis on how 18th-century court clerks or land grant commissioners spell names I have no idea. Bms4880 (talk) 23:38, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

While its true that what I'm working with are transcriptions of court and land records, the originals are in fact primary sources, contemporary with Elisha Wallen's activities in southwest Virginia. Unless you want to argue that the transcriptions are badly done, these are primary sources. There are several references specifically to Elisha Wallen in those records, and many to his relations, all using the surname "Wallen", "Walling", or Wallin". None to the surname Walden.

With reference to secondary sources, In general, I think Addington and Hamilton, who focused their attention very narrowly on Southwest Virginia, would receive more credance than Goodspeed and Ramsay who had a much broader focus. That said, you have pointed to Goodspeeds history and Ramsey's Annals as your among your sources for Walden. When I check them online, I don't see the surname "Walden" coming up in my searches, but I do get his for "Wallen" and "Walling". A specific example from Ramsey's Annals (pp.67-68)

Several of them, chiefly from Virginia, hearing of the abundance of game with which the woods were stocked, and allured by the prospects of gain, which might bedrawn from this source, formed themselves into a company, composed of Wallen, Scaggs, Blevins, Cox, and fifteen others, and came into the valley, since known as Carter’s Valley, in Hawkins county, Tennessee. They hunted eighteen months upon Clinch and Powell’s rivers. Wallen’s Creek and Wallen’s Ridge received their name from the leader of the company; as, also, did the station which they erected in the present Lee county, Virginia, the name of Wallen’s Station....In the fall of the next year Wallen and his company returned again and hunted on the waters of Clinch; they crossed the Blue Ridge at Flower Gap, New river, at Jones’s Ford, and the Iron Mountain at the Blue Spring; they travelled down the south fork of Holston, and crossing the north fork and going to Elk Garden, on the waters of Clinch, they discovered some Indian signs: they extended their journey, in the same direction, to the Hunters’ Valley—so named from their travelling to and down it several days to Black-water Creek. They fixed their station-camp near the Tennessee line, and on the present road from Jonesville to Rogersville. Some of the same company travelled down to Greasy Rock Creek, and fixed a station-camp there. It stood near the present line between Hawkins and Claibourne counties....1763. This year Wallen’s company ventured further into the interior—passed through Cumberland Gap, and hunted during the whole season on Cumberland river;

Elisha Wallen is mentioned here only as "Wallen", but the passage is obviously in reference to the Long Hunter, Ramsay is not using the "Walden" spelling.

Goodspeed is more difficult to check on line since its electronic form available to me is broken up into separate counties. However, in checking his history of Hawkins County, where Elisha Wallen lived, I find the following passage

Among others who had located in the county prior to 1783 may be mentioned John cox, Col. John Smith, William McGehee, Peter Harris, James McCarty, Hutson Johnston, John Evans, George Ridley, James Blair, Thomas Brooks, Elisha Walling, William W. Brown, capt. Thomas Hutchings, James Short, Abraham Rice, William Ingram, William lauson, Reese Jones, Capt. Thomas English, James Berry, Benjamin Murrell, George and Littleton Brooks, Thomas Henderson, Thomas Caldwell, Robert King and Martin Shaner. Among those who came in during the next two or three years were Robert Gray, Richard Mitchell, Samuel Wilson, William Bell, John Horton, Robert Stephenson and John Gordon.

Here the variant used is "Walling", but that variant is not argued. Significantly, a search of Goodspeeds Hawkins County yields no evidence for anyone by the name of Walden.

With regard to the Virginia sources you pointed to, I don't think there's any argument that there were people living in Virginia who spelled there name "Walden". However, there were also people in Virginia who spelled their names "Wallen", "Walling", and "Wallin". Your point would be meaningful if you could show that the people who used the Walden spelling were in fact closely related to Elisha Wallen.

As to why I emphasize the spellings used by court clerks, I would have thought it would have been apparent. But perhaps not. In a society where most people are illiterate, such as that of Southwest Virginia, it is the court clerks who write everything down, not the individual. Since the clerk may not know the individuals personally, he uses the spelling of their name that he thinks most appropriate. The person who is before him at the moment gave him his name, and he wrote it down as he thought best. The person himself would't have a clue as to how the name "should" be spelled but was at the mercy of the clerk. And of course, if he was illiterate, he's not going to be signing his own name. Given differences in accents and pronunciation, a certain amount of variation in spelling is to be expected. Also, different clerks probably had their own ideas about how things should be spelled, adding further differences in the way a certain surname appeared in the record. "Wallen" "Wallin", and "Walling" are fairly similar in pronunciation, and could be reasonably be expected to appear in the records, but still represent the same underlying name. "Walden" could also be the way a clerk might have heard the name; but that inserted 'd' gives makes it less likey that it would be heard as a variant of "Wallen"; might be but it seems less likely.

I don't know, of course, whether Elisha Wallen was literate or not, but the majority of the backswoods men do not seem have been literate. In any case, here's another transcription that I've come across that may be of use on this point.

This is a partial transcription for a list of voters in Hawking County in 1790.

At an election begun & held for the County of Hawkins on the 8 day of March 1790 for a Representative to Congress for the Western Districts of No Carolina Persons in Nonmination Wm. Cocke, John Sevier & John Rhea Esq.

Geo. FRANCISCO	Wm. FORGESON
Bartlett SIMS	Robert PRICE
Jno McBROOM	Thos FORGESON
Elisha WALLIN *	Jacob GRAFT
Jno MONTOGOMERY	Jno AYLIOT(?) (ELLIOT)
Wait STUBELFIELD	Mark CHAMBERS
Thos BUCKNELL	Thos HUTCHINGS
Jno JOHNSTON	Jas HILLAN
Wm COOPER	Issac GREEN
Jno CRAIG	John LEE
Jno YEATES	Jos ROGERS (married Mary Amis)
Peter LAWSON *	Peter COCKE
Richd GRANTHAM	Jas WILLIAMSON
Stephen COCKE	James WALLIN*
Alexr DONELSON	Wm ROSEBERRY
Larkin WEBB	Jno SIMS 50
Jno FRANCISCO	Hugh COOK
Wm COX	Georg EVANS
Thos MOSS	Henry JOHNS
Jno GILLAM	Wm. REYNOLDS
Richd JOHNSTON	Stephen RICHARDS
Thos LAIN	John BOND
Elijah CHISHAM	Francis DAUGHERTY
Joel MORRISON	Jordin ROACH
Fredrick MAYES	Jos SNYDER
Danl MARTIN	Hardey WILLIAMS
Gideon SMITH	Miscayss(?) BUNCH
Jno SAUNDERS 30	Cornl CARMACK
Thos ANDREW	Joel WATERSON
Benjm LOONEY	Jos PERVIN

The original and full transcription can be found at http://www.geocities.com/fcruble/rogers.html

I do not know where the original of this is located, but assume its an accurate transcription.

You'll note that Elisha Wallen appears on the list using the "Wallen" spelling. His presumed relation James Wallen also appears using the "Wallin" spelling. No evidence of anyone using "Walden".

Bill 00:55, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

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This is all very interesting. However, as it happens, Wikipedia prefers secondary sources. See WP:PRIMARY for the official policy.
As for how Elisha spelled his name, history seems to have decided (rightly or wrongly) that he was "Walden" (although I've also seen the ridge identified as "Wallen Ridge"), as this is the name of the geographic feature that was named for him. I think the current article text that says "Elisha Walden (spelled variously "Wallen", "Wallin", and "Walling")" does a nice job of documenting the ambiguity of the situation. --Orlady (talk) 23:47, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

PS - There even are different versions of the story of the origin of the name of Walden Ridge. http://www.sigmtn.com/community/history.php (NOT a reliable source) says it was named for a John Walling. --Orlady (talk) 23:52, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Orlady, I forgot about the encyclopedic preference for secondary sources. John Wallen/Walling was a later arrival in the Claiborne Co. area. He and Elisha are sometimes confused. Bms4880 (talk) 00:18, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, so limit the discussion to reliable secondary sources if you choose. As pointed out above, both of the two major Tennessee historians of the 1800's, Ramsay in discussing the Long Hunters, and Goodspeed in his history of Hawkins County, use the "Wallen" "Walling" spelling. Neither use Walden as far as I can tell.

That's consistent with reliable secondary sources for Southwest Virginia as well. e.g., Addington, and Hamilton's 1970 article on the Long Hunters, both of whom use "Wallen" or "Walling", enither of whom use "Walden".

With regard to Wallen's Ridge in Virginia, Ramsay also notes that it was named after Elisha Wallen. Where Walden Ridge in Tn gets its name is a different problem. Some apparently think it was named after Elisha Walling (using the Walden spelling), others as you point out "John Walling", and some after "Elisha Wallen". I have no particular interest in how the Tennessee Ridge came to have its name, though I'd be interested in seeing something definitive on the subject. That might be difficult relying on secondary sources.

I never said Ramsey or Goodspeed used "Walden," I cited them as sources for "Wallen." My initial response is above. Ramsey is unreliable on spellings, and Goodspeed was probably using Ramsey as a source. Folmsbee's History of Tennessee, the only peer-reviewed source among them, uses "Walden," and states that Walden Ridge is named after Elisha (p. 99), Samuel Cole Williams in Dawn of the Tennessee Valley states that Walden Ridge is named for Elisha Walden (p. 322), and the Guide to Tennessee compiled by the Works Project Administration says that Walden Ridge was named for Elisha Walden (p. 480). As it's clear the secondary sources disagree on the spelling of Elisha's last name, I see no reason to change it. Bms4880 (talk) 01:45, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

My apologies. I misunderstood. So, how do you assess the Hawkins County voter list that gives his name as "Wallen". Bill 02:34, 31 July 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bill Willis (talk • contribs)

There is a "Wallen", "Wallin", and "Walling". It reiterates my point above— Elisha's family didn't have a spelling preference for their surname, and if they did, they didn't make it known to the clerk or secretary. Bms4880 (talk) 02:47, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

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