Talk:Longship

Where is the Knörr??

This article reeks of amateurish layman penmanship. The most commonly mentioned ship type in the Old Norse sources is the Knörr. Yet this article seem to cater to popular media pseudoscholarship found only in the blogosphere and third hand sources, such as the denomination Drakkar (Which is not even an Old Norse word) and other lesser important types. Anyone with even the most basal knowledge in Old Norse sources would see this as a huge red flag for the quality of this article and the penmanship. Not including Knarr/Knörr in nominations of longships is fairly inexcusable. The whole "Types of Longships" section is missing most of its sources and should be removed entirely if not amended. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vettlingr (talk • contribs) 01:50, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Rigging, material

Apparently the ropes the Vikings used on their ships were made of walrus hide or lime bast fiber (bast is an inner tree bark). Source--"Vikings" by J.M. Clements, Sterling Publishing, N.Y. 2007, pg. 29. 50.202.81.2 (talk) 06:42, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

We know that vikings in Greenland traded with Inuits who commonly used walrus hide "ropes".Rather like the old fashioned leather bootlaces around in the 1930s.Greenland Vikings traded with Scandinavians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.226.243 (talk) 23:15, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Hi. Walrus was also hunted in Norway. Walrus hide ropes are said to be incredibly strong and durable. I guess it can tolerate saltwater so much better? Read about Walrus hunting in Norway on the Vikings page - I just recently put it in under "Farming and cuisine"; yes they also consumed the flesh. The climate was different back then, and Walrus was in Norway. If I remember correctly even polar bear RhinoMind (talk) 23:18, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Back again. Here is some on-line information on the rigging of Viking ships: sail and rigging. Be sure to also read the section on Ropes, where walrus rope is discussed. RhinoMind (talk) 20:08, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Special wool for sails

I've heard that the Viking sails were made from a local Norwegian wool which allowed the sails to billow in an elastic mode, providing more sail power, hence the greater speed. Anybody heard of this or which breed of sheep/goat to use? 50.202.81.2 (talk) 05:28, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

I might be of some help in this. We only know about the Viking ship sails from experimental archaeology. We know that it requires a lot of wool for one thing. If you want to narrow down some proper sources, try searching for "experimental archaeology, longship and wool". There is some evidence pointing to a an organized textile production in Scandinavia as far back as the Nordic Iron Age. You can find a source discussing this on the page Vikings under the trade section. RhinoMind (talk) 19:48, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Some introductory on-line information can be found here: Woollen sailcloth RhinoMind (talk) 20:04, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Sumerians

Hello. For some time a sentence mentioning Sumerians has been up in the lede. A user inserted what was probably supposed to be a ref to the claims, but it had a bad syntax. I have moved the sentence here, for several reasons:

"A similar design was sailed by the Sumerians many centuries before [ref Cradle of Civilization, p 84, pub Time Life}}"

The reasons are:

• The article about longships does not contain any information about this in the body, so should not contain any in the lede either.
• The ref does not have a correct syntax and lacks important information to qualify as a ref.
• The claim is controversial to say the least and it is not possible to verify or check the ref easily. (That does not mean it could not be correct though)
• It does not make much sense without a more thorough explanation.
• The Sumerian ships might (?) have had a similar appearance, but I doubt they had any other similarity with longships. I doubt they were clinkerbuilt and of a similar design. It would indeed need more details and refs.

RhinoMind (talk) 14:32, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

The reference apparently is this book, which according to a Google Books search (which might be less than exhaustive) does not mention the word "longship", or "Viking". Huon (talk) 16:00, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

The article is clearly about a specific ship design that flourishes in Northern Europe in the Dark/Middle Ages. It is possible to define galleys in general as "longships", in contrast to merchant vessels ("roundships")but this is not the premise of the article. As wikipedia has a perfectly good Galley article, there seems little reason for a discursion into other types of ship that are superficially similar. Monstrelet (talk) 13:41, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

Notable longships

I've reorganised this section a little into real ships and replicas. before it was a mixture of both, potentially confusing to readers. Although I added to the historical section and am confident this is a useful selection, I am less sure about the replicas. Why these ones in particular? Could someone more knowledgeable about these reconstructions please review and ensure we have only particularly notable vessels listed?Monstrelet (talk) 14:24, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

Hello. Seems like a good idea. It would also be important to note somewhere in these ship-descriptions which ones are still existing originals and which ones are mythological or only known to have existed. And about replicas. The Seastallion and Dragon Harald Hairfair are indeed noteworthy and important. I have not checked up on the last two of the four mentioned though.

And a word of caution: When we mention or discuss replicas, it is very importabt to descripe whether they are authentic replicas or just inspired by some longship designs. By "authentic replica" I mean replicas that are made exactly like original longships were made, either as true copies of original ships or using the same authentic methods that Vikings used. RhinoMind (talk) 18:33, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. I'd be happy with a three way split of notables. On notable replicas, should we include Viking (ship), possibly the first replica and certainly the first to cross the Atlantic? Monstrelet (talk) 18:47, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

Ah yes this seems like a ship worth adding. But is it really "an exact copy" (and thus an authentic replica)? The article does not say anything about how it was made, but just states that it is "an exact copy". But a noteworthy ship nonetheless I think. RhinoMind (talk) 18:58, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

Back again. I have read up on some of the ships mentioned and it would probably be a good idea to replace one of the Gokstad replicas and The Munin with a more diverse and covering seletion. They could be mentioned on the Gokstad ship page instead. I will look into it at some point, if I find some good candidates to substitute them with. I was also thinking of removing the Dragon Harald Hairfair, but since it is the longest one built in modern times it might qualify. Just some notes on my thoughts. More later. RhinoMind (talk) 20:47, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

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Umiak

The article states: "The longship's design evolved over many centuries, beginning in the Stone Age with the invention of the umiak and continuing up until the 6th century". The umiak is a Yupik/Inuit design. This assertion of the longship's heritage suggests that there was contact between the Northmen and hunter-gatherers of North America and the Eurasian Far East before the 6th century. This seems dubious to say the least. Hairy Dude (talk) 17:55, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Yeah. Good idea to add the tag you did in the article. From the top of my head I believe it was meant to refer to primitive hide-boats. These boats were also used in Scandinavia in the Nordic Stone Age. Actually I think the umiak itself was inspired by Stone Age boats that came before it. Stone Age technnology spread across cultures and regions of the world over many millenia and you can find Stone Age dug-outs, canoes and hide-boats in many places. RhinoMind (talk) 16:30, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

Hi, I removed the umiak from the lede, mainly because it is only mentioned in the lede and nowhere in the article. It is also unreferenced.

Apart from that, the umiak is constructed in almost exactly the opposite way of a Scandinavian boat in most fundamental aspects. There is a more or less "solid" archeological development progression, but no known connection to hide boats, AFAIK (which, of course, does not mean all that much). But without a ref I would regard the hide boat connection as highly speculative. T 85.166.161.28 (talk) 01:48, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

Drakkar

Drekar was changed to Drakkar, without explanation by an IP address.

Karvi and Drakkar have no 'meaning'.

And check They took a year to make comment, added in Jan 2018.

MBG02 (talk) 00:40, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

Drakkar is not an Old Norse word, and it doesn't matter how often random angloslop people want it to be. It is not in any Old Norse dictionary so just stop this stupidity. In fact it is only present in circlejerks in the blogsphere and amateur sources. It is not fit to be on Wikipedia.

Unless you can find the word drakkar in https://onp.ku.dk/onp/onp.php it does not exist (It's not in there).

It's weird that I seem to be the only one with proper scholarly knowledge of Old Norse and Icelandic on here, yet I get doubts from pretty much anyone who put things on here that they've heard from their dad.

The real term is dreki 'dragon'

You should do thus that the term "drakkar" redirects to this page, but having it in the article as a correct term is AMATEURISH and beyond stupid. Vettlingr (talk) 01:15, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Whoah. You sound like someone who hasn't had sex in a long time. You should go out and get laid, man. Carlstak (talk) 01:59, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Such unserious comments deserve no answer. Vettlingr (talk) 05:05, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

I didn't expect an answer. It was a serious suggestion for someone using such hateful expressions indicating their bottled-up rage. Carlstak (talk) 14:16, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Vettlingr (talk) 05:15, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Vettlingr, you have not asked a question. Nor is it likely that you need administrator intervention. It looks like this is a content dispute and the discussion needs to be handled more civilly by you and Carlstak.--Bbb23 (talk) 12:49, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

There is no dispute. I am not arguing in favor of "drakkar". I simply provided a reliable source for the etymology of dreki. Carlstak (talk) 14:17, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Judith Jesch, an expert in runic inscriptions, says in her Ships and Men in the Late Viking Age: The Vocabulary of Runic Inscriptions and Skaldic Verse:

Another image we have from the Viking Age is of the dragon ship, or the ship with a carved dragon's head on the prow. The word dreki (m., pl. drekar) 'dragon' is used of a ship in only seven stanzas. Many writers assume dreki was a technical or semi-technical term for the 'biggest warships of all' (Foote and Wilson 1974, 237; Simek 1982, 39) and that it was broader than a skeið (AnS, 104; Simek 1982, 35). Falk (AnS, 107) suggests that the term was originally the name of a particular ship, and compares the use of Ormr 'worm, dragon' as a ship's name. Certainly the different etymology of dreki (compared to other ship words which are originally descriptive of their shape or actions) seems significant. While it is possible that the term was used in the late Viking Age of particularly large and ornate ships, such as those belonging to Haraldr harðráði, it is worth noting that the poets also call these same ships skeið (ÞjóðA IV,18,19; Valg 6,9,10). It is more likely that calling a large warship (with or without a dragonhead prow) a 'dragon' is a poetic conceit rather than a terminus technicus.

Carlstak (talk) 03:25, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Source provided does not mention the word "drakkar" but "dreki". This is because "drakkar" is a made up term with no support in scholarship.

"Dreki" on the other hand is a Valid Old Norse term. Vettlingr (talk) 05:07, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress (2019)

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Longships which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. -- 70.51.201.106 (talk) 14:54, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

One Edit, one proposal

Hi, I removed the spurious etymology of "snekkja/snekke" from "snake", from some childrens' book on vikings. The Norse word for "snake" is "orm" and the ship is not called an "ormkja", so there. Snekke, Schnaak and a dozen other variants are a common Norse/Low German word for a small ship, but the etymological roots of the core "snac" are uncertain, as stated in the ODS dictionary.
Also, the article "Viking Ship" seems to double this one in intent and substance, but makes a much poorer job of it. I suggest they be merged into one GA article. T 85.166.161.28 (talk) 02:09, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

Dimensions

the average Longship dimensions are between 20-30 meters in length 3-4 meters in airdraft 4-6 meters in width and the mast is between 15-25 meters in height — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factualmaniac (talk • contribs) 00:50, 28 October 2021 (UTC)