Talk:Lord Adolphus FitzClarence

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Lord Adolphus FitzClarence/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Amitchell125 (talk · contribs) 13:49, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Happy to review the article.

Review comments

Lead section / infobox

• Link patronage; crowned king (Coronation of William IV and Adelaide).

• Done.

• and Dorothea Jordan – consider amending to ‘and his mistress Dorothea Jordan’.

• Done.

• subsequently and various both seem redundant imo.

• Removed.

• considerable is subjective, and so I wouldn’t include it.

• Replaced with "frequent".

• Sir Thomas Fremantle and William Henry Smyth need to be introduced.

• Added their ranks, argue any further details would be too much for the lede.

• In the infobox, link North Yorkshire.

• Done.

• Knight Grand Cross of the Royal Guelphic Order is linked twice (minor point).

• I think because one is the post-nominal link it's OK to keep both, but willing to change if you believe otherwise.

Agreed. AM

• Commas are needed after serving in the Mediterranean, escorting dignitaries, and died in 1837. Could you check the rest of the article for other missing commas (as the same issue arises in the sections)?

• Have added the above commas but as an enemy of possibly superfluous American English commas I probably won't discover by myself where the article is missing others!

Commas are sometimes needed. I'll see if I can come with a list. AM

Lead—after North Sea.

Military career ('War of 1812' to 'Lieutenant')—after volunteer, During this, December, leave, Constantinople, Fleet in August, of the bombardment, until November, friend Charles, happened, Greece, Pope Pius VII.

Military career ('First commands' to 'Diplomatic and escort duties')—after 28 February, around the fleet, Dundas, half pay, returned to the Ionian Islands, on Challenger, arrival, 9 December.

Military career ('Royal favours' to 'Later royal yacht service')—after with Royal George, January 1837, Louis Philippe I, August 1853. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:54, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Done all but "9 December".

• I would include a caption under the portrait – something like ‘A anonymous portrait of FitzClarence (c.1823/4)), National Trust'.

• Added.

1 Early life

• Bushy Park, Middlesex – this historic county will mean little to many readers, consider adding 'now in Greater London'.

• Done.

• his siblings; - the semicolon should be a comma.

• Rejigged sentence.

• I’m unclear what is meant by before in 1813.

• Reworded.

• The image’s caption should imo include the attributed artist, the image itself seems to be in the wrong section in the article, and Malta could be linked (as it is in the text).

• Argue that the caption is wordy enough as it is, and I'm using the image to illustrate FitzClarence's military service rather than the artwork itself. Linked Malta and moved.

Understood. AM

2.1 War of 1812

• Consider linking convoy (Convoy#Age_of_Sail).

• Done.

• volunteer first-class – my understanding of the term is that it is usually written 'First Class Volunteer'. There is a relevant link - Master's_mate#Royal_Navy.

• Corrected wording but not linking - I don't believe that article correctly/amply explains the role/rank as it was at the time of FitzClarence's service.

Understood. AM

• taking monarchs - ‘taking of the monarchs’?

• Done.

• chase the American – consider simplifying to ‘chase it’.

• Done.

• Not GA (I think) but it’s normal practice to have citations in numerical order. There is an example here of where this has not been done (another occurs in the Diplomatic and escort duties section).

• Not GA and not something I ever think about while writing, but happy to fix where it crops up. Any constructive comments are useful whether they cover GA criteria or not!

• Consider adding this image of Impregnable ([1]).

• On my screen there's not space to add another image for this part of the article, if added it would turn up in the middle of Mediterranean service? Happy to add if you think otherwise.

Apologies for not being clearer, I would the image of Tagus into the section below (where it is mentioned a lot), leaving room for the Impregnable here. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:59, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Done.

2.2 Mediterranean service

• Midshipman Charles Fremantle, a future admiral, joined Tagus at the same time, beginning a lifelong friendship between the pair. – seems clumsily written. I would amend it to something like ‘He became lifelong friends with Charles Fremantle, a future admiral, who joined Tagus as a midshipman at the same time.’

• Done.

• the plague rife there did not spread - ‘the plague there did not spread’?

• Done.

• The majority... – this paragraph and the one that follows both jump around: Ionian Islands (Tagus) - Palermo, Naples, Livorno, Malta (Albion) – Alexandria, Tangier, Malta, Britain (Tagus). Perhaps this amount of detail is not needed, or if it is, it could be simplified somehow.

• That's what his service was, and I think it's useful to illustrate just had varied/wide-ranging it was; imo to remove it (while yes, simplifying the text) would create the assumption in the reader that FitzClarence didn't really do/see much in the Med.

Understood, and I agree with you, but I had to read the paragraphs a few times before realizing that LAF was aboard Tagus all the way from the Ionian Islands all the way to Britain, except for three months in the summer of 1817. Perhaps the text could emphasize this more clearly? Amitchell125 (talk) 19:10, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Attempted to clarify.

Looks sorted now. AM

• Imo the two quotes break up the text somewhat, and would be better included within the paragraphs.

• Removed block quotes.

• before in April – ‘and in April’?

• Done.

• surveying duties - surveying can be both land surveying (Surveying) or sea surveying (Hydrographic survey). If possible, I would amend the text so that both links are included.

• I can't categorically say from the source used what type of survey Aid was undertaking and think linking one, or both, types would be perilously close to guessing.

in the Ionian Islands and Adriatic Sea implies both land and sea surveying—am I incorrect here? Amitchell125 (talk) 19:10, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

"in the Ionian Islands" means serving/sailing within them, as any ship might do. I think it's clear enough considering the naval context. If I knew FitzClarence definitively served on land then I'd be using "on the Ionian Islands".

Understood. AM

• the two boys – as they were both in their late teens during this period, is boys a bit misleading?

• Removed.

• subpar seems redundant.

• Removed (although it does seem they weren't very good navigators!)

• Two weeks later the admiral died in Naples. - imo it would make better sense if this sentence was moved to the following paragraph.

• Done.

2.4 First commands

• Link merchant seamen (Merchant navy).

• Done.

2.5 Return to the Mediterranean

• Link British Army.

• Already linked earlier in article.

Understood. AM

• It needs to be clearer which War of Independence is being referred to in this section.

• Added "Greek".

• in this period seems redundant.

• Removed.

2.6 Diplomatic and escort duties

• Link turtle; cheetah; elk; antelope.

• Done.

• I would acknowledge the artist and the source for the painting shown here.

• Ibid previous comment on images; won't die on this hill though.

It's a historical painting, so I think the extra information should be added here. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:14, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Added artist/engraver's name.

• to Calcutta, arriving – consider amending to ‘to India, arriving’ (so avoiding two Calcuttas in one line).

• Done.

2.7 Royal favours

• Link North Wales.

• Done.

• Perhaps here would be a good place to put an image of William IV as king.

• Added.

2.8 Accession of Victoria

• FitzClarence's father as monarch upon the latter's death – simplify to ‘William IV’?

• Rejigged.

• hope for anything – is followed by a full stop?

• Done.

• which new vessel was – needs copy editing to improve the prose.

• It reads correctly to someone who spends their days with their head stuck in 19th century prose! Changed.

• in the same month – ‘that month’?

• Done.

2.9 Later royal yacht service

• Link aide-de-camp.

• Linked earlier in article.

Understood. AM

• through most of his life - ‘throughout most of his life’.

• Done.

4 References

• A url is available for Beauclerk-Dewar & Powell (https://archive.org/details/royalbastardsill00roge).

• Added.

• Owen appears to be a ‘subscription required’ source.

• It's a published academic journal, not a source like ODNB where the only option is the online subscription to the service.

Understood. AM

• A url is available for Fraser (https://archive.org/details/disraelihisday00frasuoft/page/n5/mode/2up).

• Added.

• A minor point, but O'Byrne doesn’t need a page number here, as the page is already given elsewhere.

• It's akin to a chapter reference, so I think this is correct.

• A url is available for Ziegler (https://archive.org/details/kingwilliamiv00zieg/page/n5/mode/2up).

• Added.

Spot checks seem fine.

On hold

This article is basically sound. I'm putting it on hold for a week until 6 May to allow time for the issues raised to be addressed. Regards, Amitchell125 (talk) 20:26, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

@Amitchell125: Hi, thanks for taking a look at this! I've responded to your comments above. Happy to work on anything you don't agree with, I promise I'm flexible! Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 11:23, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your fast work, I'll check through this evening, crossing out points I think are now addressed, and adding a small red cross (N) where imo we aren't there yet. Amitchell125 (talk) 12:44, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

@Amitchell125: Responses above. Thanks again, Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 12:36, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Passing

Passing the article now, great work. Regards, Amitchell125 (talk) 12:49, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Evrik (talk) 01:32, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that Lord Adolphus FitzClarence first command of a ship was the HMS Brisk after its previous commander drowned in Sheerness? Source: https://doi.org/10.1093/ref:odnb/9541 , https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/A_Naval_Biographical_Dictionary/FitzClarence,_Adolphus , Owen, Hugh (February 1997). "'I Shall Make Five Sons of Mine Fight for their King and Country': The Naval Sons of William IV and Mrs Jordan". The Mariner's Mirror. 83 (1): 41–61. doi:10.1080/00253359.1997.10656628 Page 51.
  • ALT1: ... that Lord Adolphus FitzClarence was the only of his five brothers to stay on good terms with his father William IV during his reign? Source: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00253359.1997.10656628 Page 55
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/WUPA
  • Comment: More hooks welcome as it was kind of hard to think of some.

Improved to Good Article status by Amitchell125 (talk) and Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk). Nominated by Onegreatjoke (talk) at 19:51, 6 May 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Lord Adolphus FitzClarence; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• Good article promoted 6 days before nomination, no copyvio, QPQ done, hooks could use an improvement, so here's an alt:

• ALT2: ... that Lord Adolphus FitzClarence was said to be too slow due to his "most necessary appendage"?Source: Owen, Hugh (February 1997). "'I Shall Make Five Sons of Mine Fight for their King and Country': The Naval Sons of William IV and Mrs Jordan". The Mariner's Mirror. 83 (1): 41–61. doi:10.1080/00253359.1997.10656628.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: year (link)

〜 Festucalex • talk 13:20, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

@Festucalex: You can't approve your own hook per WP:DYKSG H2. A new reviewer is needed for ALT2, or you can strike ALT2 and approve one of the others. Sojourner in the earth (talk) 19:52, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

@Sojourner in the earth: I didn't think I was approving my own hook. I thought it was up to the promoter to choose which hook to use. 〜 Festucalex • talk 02:50, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

The promoter can only choose from the approved hooks. You indicated that the nominator's hooks weren't good enough and proposed your own, so none of the current hooks have been independently approved. Sojourner in the earth (talk) 08:57, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

@Sojourner in the earth: Got it. 〜 Festucalex • talk 10:38, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Post-close check: Taking all other DYK considerations as completed per the previous assessment, the newly proposed hook is supported directly by a source in the article, and that source includes the cited information. CMD (talk) 02:18, 19 June 2023 (UTC)