Talk:Lord of Liddesdale

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Talk: Lord of Liddesdale

The De Soules family originated in Soules in the Cotentin, but we do not know when or where Ranulf I de Soules was born. He was apparently one of the group of young Normans who David gathered around him before he became King of the Scots in 1124 and was therefore probably of a similar age. He may have been born in England or in the Cotentin at Soules, although the former appears more likely. M’Michael states that he was from Doddingham in Northamptonshire, the county where David spent his early married life after becoming Earl of Huntington and Northamptonshire on marrying Matilda. The date and location of Ranulf’s birth that are noted elsewhere on the web are speculative.Inver471ness 04:11, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

The curious thing is that David, according to the theories of Duncan and Oram (based on a charter of David confirming a grant of Robert de Brus to a monastery there), was made the Lord of Contentin during Henry I's reconquest of Normandy. A little suspicious don't you think that the de Soules from Contentin got territory in David's territory in southern Scotland and in David's territory in central England. ;) Are there any grounds for suspecting that the family were in Britain before 1106 x 1124? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 05:50, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

BTW, my copy of the article is buried away somewhere ... it is dated and only useful for names and citations ... so I can't say what name the article has, but it is McMichael on the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography. M'Michael looks like one of those curious antiquated spellings that seem to come only from Galloway these days. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 05:52, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Concerning your comment:

“The curious thing is that David, according to the theories of Duncan and Oram (based on a charter of David confirming a grant of Robert de Brus to a monastery there), was made the Lord of Contentin during Henry I's reconquest of Normandy. A little suspicious don't you think that the de Soules from Contentin got territory in David's territory in southern Scotland and in David's territory in central England. ;) Are there any grounds for suspecting that the family were in Britain before 1106 x 1124? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 05:50, 18 August 2007 (UTC)”

You raise an interesting point. I do not know of evidence that one or more of the de Soules were in Britain, (or specifically England ) between 1106 and 1124, other than M’ Michael’s statement that Ranulf was from Doddingham in Northamptonshire. I have scanned the applicable paragraph and the references for you. It seems to me that the similarity of the names, Doddingham, and Dodintona support Ranulf’s relationship to Doddingham. I have not read M’Michael’s references 3,4 and 5, so I am relying on his interpretation. I am intrigued enough to see what I can find out about a saint with a name similar to Dodintoma. _________________

From M’Michael, p163

“In the time of David I., Randolph de Solis (2) granted to Jedburgh Abbey the church of Dodintona, the church of St. Martin of Lideldale, and half a carucate of land in Nasebith; as shown in Mr. Reid’s charters. David 1. confirmed this grant;(3) William the Lion about 1165 confirmed it again, and described the first-named church as the church of “ Dodintun Uxta Bertona;”(4) and Robert Bruce in his time confirmed it once more.(5) From this we gather that Randolph (6) was a Norman baron from Doddington in Northamptonshire, in which county David I. had spent his early married life; and that he had been granted the lands of Liddesdale and the lands of Nesbit in Teviotdale.”

2 Solis. Soles, Solas, Sules, Sulis, Soules, Soulis. etc. The commonest forms are Soules and Sules. Usual1y spelt Soulis by modern writers. 3. Reid’s Charters, 1, 2, 3. 4.Fraser, “Scotts of Buclluech,” p.2. 5 “ Reg. Mag. Sig.,” I., App. N., 94

           6 Randolph, Ranolph, Ranulph, Raulph. Radulf, etc.

_______________________

Nine centuries after his birth, I doubt that we shall ever know exactly when or where Ranulph was born, but I agree that he could have been born in Soules or in England. I am confused about your sentence, “A little suspicious don't you think that the de Soules from Contentin got territory in David's territory in southern Scotland and in David's territory in central England.” I am not sure of your point.

Finally, I would like your advice. Do you think I should add the above M’ Michael information to my Wikipedia article?

I appreciated your comments.

Inver471ness 02:47, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry but my attempt to upload part of M’Michael’s article for you did not work.

Anyway, I have thoroughly investigated further on the web and can find no evidence of any connection between Ranulf de Soules and Doddingham or Northamptonshire to support M’Michael’s conclusion that Ranulf was from Doddingham. I conclude that Ranulf almost certainly was from Soules in the Cotentin. Consequently, I have altered the article, Ranulf I de Soules, in Wikepedia to this effect. Thank you for your help.Inver471ness (talk) 22:16, 9 March 2008 (UTC)