Talk:Lorica (prayer)
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Incantation
editthis is horseshit. we are ditw. the Lorica is not an "incantation" it's a prayer. for those of you who stumble upon this garbage title, an incantation is a spiritual transaction. you have to give the spirit world something for your request. in christ-ianity, a prayer refers to request for succor. It is only that; a request, you aren't required to pay the deity for his or her services. but you are required to pay the spirit world.
if anyone knows how to change the title to a less incorrect one, then please tell me. X911oz 13:17, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- There is a perfectly good definition of incantation in Wikipedia, it begins:
- There are other related meanings. I don't know where you get the idea that an incantation necessarily involves a "spiritual transaction" or that a Christian prayer is necessarily a "request for succor". What makes a lorica an incantation is that it is "recited for protection". Incidentally, this is a meaning which matches nicely with the original meaning of the Latin word lorica which means body armour.
- I refer you to the words of Associate Pastor Rev. Moira McGuinn of Plymouth Congregational Church Miami, found at http://www.plymouthmiami.com/news/Plymouth%20News%203-07%20.pdf.
- In all the preparation for St Patrick’s day, you might enjoy one of my favorite hymns. The words had been a part of Irish monastic tradition for centuries before the hymn itself was written. It is an example of a lorica, a chant or incantation recited for protection. (Don’t get nervous about the incantation idea…it comes from the word incantare: in- “into, upon” and cantare “to sing”… we might say “to chant.”) You can search out St Patrick’s lorica if you are so inclined…or you can get the gist of it in hymn 523 in our hymnal!
- "Incantation" falls under the WikiProjectMagic. The definition there states that "[A]n incantation or enchantment is a charm or spell ..." Even the cited Rev. McGuinn is apparently aware ("Don't get nervous...) of the common connotation of "magic, occultism, witchcraft" -also from the aforementioned "Incantation" article. "St.Patrick's Breastplate" is prayer, not an incantation. --Mannanan51 (talk) 02:21, 25 June 2011 (UTC)mannanan51
Caim Prayer?
editI'm unable to find a source as to the meaning of "Caim". It appears most websites repeat the claim it means "encompassing" without citing a Gaelic lexicon modern or ancient. Can someone who speaks and/or knows Old Irish or Scottish please confirm? I find it more suspect in light of the other wiki page on "Caim" which indicates it is a Gaelic word, but one which refers to the Biblical Cain! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caim)
In addition, the citation for this prayer comes from a blog which itself doesn't cite another source as to the tradition behind this prayer. An internet search shows a variety of places talking about "Caim Prayers" but not a manuscript source besides one modern book by David Adam which I believe are modern prayers inspired by the Celtic tradition, but not ancient prayers themselves. Even if the one prayer cited has a tradition of being called a "caim", they only the words. The ritual action of drawing a circle needs a citation to some liturgical text or the like. Even a citation from a study of folk religion would suffice. Again, this seems to me so far to be a very recent invention and if so should be labeled as such.
In short, I seriously question this as a tradition on par with the Loricae and propose this section indicated as a modern development from the older Lorica tradition. NB: I'm not calling into question it's validity on this page, just the implied antiquity.
Also, it's unclear if the phrase "One well known caim is that of St. Bridget" refers to the one from the Carmina listed. If so that is incorrect as it is usually connected to St. Columba. If not, then the prayer of St. Brigit should be listed or cited, whichever one was intended. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.118.227.217 (talk) 04:51, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- Fixed the citation issues and corrected some of the information. Much of the "how to" could be labeled as "new research" and so it was removed while leaving the blog citation intact. Changed that part to "a modern usage" which is more accurate until an older ritual text is demonstrated to exist. Removed the reference to St. Brigit and added the citation of the prayer properly to St. Columba. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.118.227.217 (talk) 17:24, 20 February 2017 (UTC)