Talk:Louisiana Ragin' Cajuns

No mention of the death penalty?

For men's basketball? Jrcla2 (talk) 15:58, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Add Football Page

This is one of three schools that don't have a seperate football page, someone should make it. Louisiana's Ragin' Cajuns football-- Rhetto1025 (talk) 17:26, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Requested move 1

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 06:10, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Louisiana's Ragin' Cajuns → Louisiana-Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns — The "Louisiana's" usage is limited in scope largely to the university itself. The suggested usage is more common on a national scale. Re-relisted. Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 19:48, 15 June 2010 (UTC) fuzzy510 (talk) 04:43, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Oppose. The current name is clearly the most common name according to a search of Google News, and there is no danger of the name being confused for another organisation called "Ragin' Cajuns" from Louisiana. Fences&Windows 17:32, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

• Support. "Louisiana-Lafayette" is the name used by the NCAA here. And, in my opinion, the GoogleNews search supports the use "Louisiana-Lafayette" and not "Louisiana's." Kithira (talk) 18:12, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose. (1) Google search yields 293,000 entries for Louisiana's Ragin' Cajuns (501,000 results when inside quote marks) vs. 175,000 results for Louisiana-Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns (127,000 when inside quote marks) (2) NCCA is not always the standard, e.g., "FIU Golden Panthers" are listed in Wikipedia entry, even though NCAA denotes then as "Florida International" (3) "Louisiana-Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns" already redirects to this article, so no one is going to be confused. Aaron charles (talk) 05:36, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move to Louisiana-Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Denied. Appears to be enough opposition to say that this request did not get enough support to fulfill a page move. May be relisted at another time Jojhutton (talk) 16:42, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

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Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Support. Louisiana's Ragin' Cajuns → Louisiana-Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns — All major national media refer to ULL athletic teams as Louisiana-Lafayette. The NCAA and their own conference uses Louisiana-Lafayette. Google lists over 25 times as many results for "louisiana-lafayette football" than "louisiana's ragin' cajuns" and over 50 times more than "louisiana's ragin' cajuns football." The city designation is also necessary to disambiguate from Louisiana-Monroe. Using Louisiana without the Lafayette designation is also prohibited by state law. AllisonFoley (talk) 07:55, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

• Support. I think we are giving the google search far too much import. Searches without quotes for Louisiana-Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns would have numerous results about just Lafayette or just Cajuns. Even a search with quotes for Louisiana-Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns would have some results pertaining to Louisiana's Cajun culture. Therefore, the google search, as always, is NOT a good measuring stick. The focus here should be on the overwhelming majority of media outlets and other college sports sites referring to the school athletic teams as the "Louisiana-Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns." Kithira (talk) 12:04, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose. The university's athletic team name is compliant with the law, until otherwise proven outside of Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a battleground. Any naming arguments are political or legal fights best held elsewhere. The university officially notes that: "The lead athletic name is Louisiana's Ragin' Cajuns®." http://www.louisiana.edu/Advancement/PRNS/media/universityname.shtml. Until proven by a court of law or specific legislative mandate, "Louisiana's Ragin' Cajuns" with the apostrophe is legal. Aaron charles (talk) 19:02, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose Further. Sorry to list a second oppose, but I was left little alternative as this whole subsection (survey and discussion) was shuffled around on 21 July 2010 and has become quite convoluted (note that my previous oppose note was 17 July 2010, but is now below two newer and/or altered responses). The discussion (and survey) contents are no longer in the order in which they were posted and at least one contributor has altered their previous dated statements. I did not want to alter or move my previous posts. Initially, the requested move was based solely on an allegation that the name was illegal. Since that was debunked, the discussion moved to Google searches. In this and a recent prior discussion, Google searches have been brought up as a reason to support the change. The opposite was proven by Google search favoring the current name by 312% to the proposed name. So the remaining discussion point is about sports media references. Redirects exist to address what may reasonably be searched using Louisiana-Lafayette. The article name is recognizable, as confirmed by Google. The article is easy to find, per Wiki redirects and referring pages. The article name is sufficiently precise since the ULM team is not the Louisiana-Monroe Ragin' Cajuns, and does need to be distinguished. Furthermore, the proposed alternative name is part of the article text. Please do not shuffle around the discussion flow anymore. Aaron charles (talk) 04:27, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

• One more clarification. The first "oppose" note by me was drafted to disagree with the illegal allegation and labeled as such. The label and context had been altered by someone else other than me. Please do not edit others comments. Aaron charles (talk) 04:51, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

• Support. When I first read "Louisiana's Rajin' Cajun's", the first thought that came to mind is that this is some sort of professional team, when clearly it is not. The title is misleading. There are two basic elements to this article: 1. It is about sports. 2. It is about sports at a university. Therefore, I believe that the title of the article should reflect these two elements, and should be renamed with the Louisiana-Lafayette designation, since that more clearly denotes that this sports article refers to the university, and not to the State of Louisiana.

• Wot, again? This only just failed to get consensus, proposing another move immediately is pretty tedious. Here's my opinion again: "Oppose. The current name is clearly the most common name according to a search of Google News, and there is no danger of the name being confused for another organisation called "Ragin' Cajuns" from Louisiana. Fences&Windows 6:32 pm, 30 June 2010, Wednesday (31 days ago) (UTC+1)" Fences&Windows 00:22, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
  • p.s. Google hits are irrelevant, but the statement that Google lists over 25 times as many results for "louisiana-lafayette football" than "louisiana's ragin' cajuns" is not even a fair comparison, as the title you want to move to is not "Louisiana-Lafayette Football". So noting that this is the second move request, noting the deceptive use of Google searches, and noting the pseudo-lawyering going on below, this requested move is overall pretty disruptive. Fences&Windows 00:29, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

• Support The university's name is Louisiana-Lafayette not just Louisiana.--Bellsprout723d (talk) 00:07, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

• Louisiana State Law Reads:

Act 45 (Appendix A) of the 1995 Regular Session of the Louisiana Legislature (Senate Bill 843 by Picard and Brinkhaus, and Representatives McDonald, McFerren, Montgomery and Thompson) officially named the system of institutions under the supervision and management of the Board of Trustees for State Colleges and Universities the “University of Louisiana System.” The Act also authorized the Board of Trustees and Board of Regents to approve the change of name of any university within the System to the “University of Louisiana at (its geographic location)” provided no less than two institutions make a request for and are approved to change the institutional names. In order to facilitate the provisions of Act 45, institutions should adhere to the following guidelines:

The Southern Regional Education Board (SREB) and Carnegie classification systems shall be used to illustrate distinctions and differentiations among member institutions and shall not be used to imply explicitly or implicitly a hierarchy of member institutional rankings.

There shall be no institution designated as the main (primary) campus for the University of Louisiana System. Any designation of or reference to a member institution as “flagship,” “lead,” “main,” or by other similar descriptors is prohibited.

All institutions within the University of Louisiana System are to comply with the following precepts and guidelines set forth to govern and coordinate the use of the University of Louisiana name and logo.

The use of the two-letter University of Louisiana abbreviation, “UL,” and/or the phrase “U of L” are prohibited by the university or any of its affiliated organizations (alumni associations, development foundations, bookstores, etc.). For academic, public relations, athletic, as well as other purposes not specified, the use of the University of Louisiana abbreviation must always include the abbreviation for the municipal location of the institution. For example, ULR is appropriate for University of Louisiana at Rayne.

All uses of the name “University of Louisiana” must be followed by the word “at” and the institution’s geographic location. No typographic variations within the name are permitted. The word “at” must be no less than 50% and the geographic location must not exceed 100% nor be less than 80% of the University of Louisiana name. Any institutional use of “University of Louisiana” without the “at” and geographic location is prohibited. AllisonFoley (talk) 06:51, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

• Aaron Charles' Google search argument in the archived discussion is misleading. A Google search for louisiana-lafayette football produces "about 7,190,000 results," which is 25x popular than the Louisiana's Ragin' Cajuns search that you referenced. AllisonFoley (talk) 21:57, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
• All of the major sports news outlets use the Lafayette designation:

• ESPN/ABC: Louisiana-Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns
• Sports Illustrated/CNN: Louisiana-Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns
• The Sporting News: Louisiana-Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns
• Fox Sports: Louisiana-Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns
• CBS Sports: La.-Lafayette Ragin Cajuns
• NBC Sports: Louisiana-Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns
• USA Today: Louisiana-Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns
• Rivals.com/Yahoo! Sports: Louisiana-Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns

Even their conference and the NCAA refer to ULL as Louisiana-Lafayette:

• SunBeltSports.org: Louisiana-Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns
• NCAA.com: Louisiana-Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns

Wikipedia's #1 college football resource, which is integrated into Wikipedia's template for college football coaches:

• College Football Data Warehouse: Louisiana-Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns AllisonFoley (talk) 21:13, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose - requested move, but think the list makes a case to be noted in the article (which I added). While several sports media sites list Louisiana-Lafayette, it is only one factor, not the sole factor in deciding an article's name. The article name is the official, trademark and common name used by the institution and is the most common term per a Google search ("Louisiana's Ragin Cajuns" -wikipedia compared to "Louisiana-Lafayette Ragin Cajuns"-wikipedia) by 312% more than Louisiana-Lafayette. Aaron charles (talk) 04:34, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
• AllisonFoley's Google numbers are misrepresented. A Google search of "louisiana-lafayette football" yields only 184,000 results, whereas a search of "louisiana's ragin' cajuns" yields 460,000 results. The athletic team name has been used for more than a decade and is not against the law, in fact, it is trademarked under the law. Aaron charles (talk) 16:49, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
• No, they are correct. It's for louisiana-lafayette football WITHOUT quotes. It reports "about 8,310,000 results." AllisonFoley (talk) 18:04, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
• I thought this discussion was about renaming the article Louisiana's Ragin' Cajuns → Louisiana-Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns. The term "football" is not in either. Again, the Google search favors the current name by 312% to the proposed name. Aaron charles (talk) 18:16, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move (2011)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: pages moved per discussion. If there's anything I missed, someone please let me know. - GTBacchus^(talk) 00:29, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

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• Louisiana's Ragin' Cajuns → Louisiana–Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns
• Louisiana's Ragin' Cajuns football → Louisiana–Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns football

– A move of this sort has been proposed twice before and has met opposition. The result is that we have been left with no consistent naming scheme for the articles and categories referring to the athletic teams at the University of Louisiana at Lafayette. These moves will provide such a coherent naming scheme. As I have argued elsewhere, and which AllisonFoley referenced above, the way that major media outlets, the NCAA, and any relevant athletic conference make their structural namings of athletic teams in things like standings (e.g. [1] and team homepages (e.g. [2], should be the leading directive for Wikipedia naming schemes. Jweiss11 (talk) 21:57, 1 August 2011 (UTC) Jweiss11 (talk) 21:57, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Let's also note that the following articles should be named in the same fashion as the two proposed for moves above:

• Louisiana–Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns baseball
• Louisiana–Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns men's basketball
• 2008 Louisiana–Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns football team
• 2009 Louisiana–Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns football team
• 2010 Louisiana–Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns football team
• 2011 Louisiana–Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns football team

Jweiss11 (talk) 22:04, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

• Support proposed moves, as well as any similar moves not explicitly listed here. The school may call themselves "Louisiana's Ragin' Cajuns", but it's clear that 1) there are a bunch of other schools that have at least as much right to be "Louisiana's", and 2) the other formulation is more widespread in reliable sources. All articles dealing with athletics at the University of Louisiana at Lafayette should be renamed accordingly, with redirects left in place. cmadler (talk) 01:43, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
• Support proposed moves for all the reasons I mentioned in the archived discussions. In addition, "Louisiana's Ragin' Cajuns" is only a nickname. It does not reference the school's name at all. The standard naming convention for all other college sports articles references the school's name first followed by the nickname. Therefore, this family of articles should read "Louisiana-Lafayette" (school) "Ragin' Cajuns" (nickname). -AllisonFoley (talk) 07:01, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
• Support all proposed moves, as well as any related ones. Allison and cmadler both make good points, and I entirely agree that this method of naming goes against precedent, as well as being a less commonly used nickname in the media. Nolelover ^{Talk·Contribs} 01:56, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move (June 2013)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. (non-admin closure) Apteva (talk) 03:39, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

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Louisiana–Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns → Louisiana Ragin' Cajuns – According to the school's basketball media guide, the school prefers to be called simply "Louisiana" in athletics, and not "Louisiana-Lafayette." All the related team pages should be moved as well. HangingCurve^{Swing for the fence} 23:11, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose the current name is more commonly used. The school's preference matters not. Hot Stop talk-contribs 23:44, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose - The school is commonly known as Louisiana–Lafayette. Every major media outlet refers to them as Louisiana–Lafayette. Their own Sun Belt Conference refers to them as Louisiana–Lafayette and the other school as Louisiana–Monroe. There is no such school as the University of Louisiana. Therefore, it should remain Louisiana–Lafayette. -AllisonFoley (talk) 01:17, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
• Mild oppose, but only per WP:COMMONNAME. The name is precise enough but not commonly used by sources. Red Slash 05:56, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. AllisonFoley summed it up best. Jrcla2 (talk) 20:37, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

This naming controversy reeks of politics even on this page. The school is calling themselves the Louisiana Ragin’ Cajuns in sports and many of their fans refer to the school as UL or ULA (LA being the state abbreviation for Louisiana). The only reason why the school isn’t referred to as Louisiana on CBS and ESPN is because those networks do not want to offend LSU, which is a SEC school. LSU has made it clear that they would rather have the Ragin’ Cajuns referred to as Louisiana-Lafayette or at least anything other than Louisiana. ESPN and ABC have the same parent company and both ESPN/ABC and CBS have a rather large contract with the SEC for football. Fox Sports and the Big 10 Network on the other hand typically refer to the school as the Louisiana Ragin’ Cajuns during broadcasts. What the Cajuns are doing isn’t unprecedented; Cal-Berkeley is generally known as the California Golden Bears in athletics, but is commonly referred to as Cal-Berkeley or even just Berkeley in academia.

After TWO polls which clearly show that there was no consensus on changing the initial Louisiana Ragin’ Cajuns page, it seems like someone convened a third poll on this and quickly had this “consensus” on the Louisiana-Lafayette moniker approved. Basically what will happen now is that anytime this topic comes up, there will be folks who will make sure that there is no consensus. Despite the fact that the school’s athletic program is officially known as the Louisiana Ragin Cajuns, it will be known as the Louisiana-Lafayette Ragin’ Cajuns in Wikipedia. G. Capo (talk) 18:22, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

No matter what the school thinks, the current article name is correct. There is no question THE University of California (to the extent there is one) is Berkeley, or THE University of Texas is Austin (even though they officially use "at Austin" in the name), or THE University of Arkansas is Fayetteville (my alma mater, legally uses "at Fayetteville" but usually avoided there), or THE University of Mississippi is Oxford (no matter what Mississippi State may think, even though they're SEC just like Ole Miss). Yet to those not versed in the legal intracies of Louisiana's state universities, "the University of Louisiana" is usually just another name for LSU (and not just in the SEC either). The rule is WP:COMMONNAME, NOT legal or official name; WP:OFFICIALNAMES now exists mainly to educate the uneducated. It should be "Louisiana-Lafayette", NOT just "Louisiana". --RBBrittain (talk) 14:20, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Interesting comment. What is THE University of Ohio. Is it Ohio U. or Ohio State? More to the point, has Ohio State demanded Ohio use Ohio-Athens? In any case LSU is firmly established as the flagship university for the state of Louisiana. Still in Louisiana, from what I understand if you refer to University of Louisiana or just Louisiana in college sports, most folks would believe you're referring to the school in Lafayette. If you say LSU just about everyone would believe you're referring to the school in Baton Rouge. Also, the school in Lafayette have officially branded all of their athletic teams as the Louisiana Ragin' Cajuns. It's a trademarked official name that the school uses for its athletic teams. It seems more than a little bizarre that on Wikipedia "consensus" was reached that it should not use its official trademarked name. It's almost akin to reaching a "consensus" that we should refer to Muhammad Ali as Cassius Clay.G. Capo (talk) 01:58, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Louisiana–Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns baseball which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 18:30, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Louisiana Ragin Cajuns

1. The official name for athletics is the "Louisiana Ragin' Cajuns." In fact, this verbiage is contained in the school's logo, which is featured on the school's Wikipedia page.

http://www.louisiana.edu/about-us/media/proper-use-universitys-name

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UL_Lafayette_Ragin%27_Cajuns_Logo.png

If "Louisiana Ragin' Cajuns" is not allowed, why is the logo allowed?

2. The use of "Louisiana Ragin' Cajuns" is in keeping with all laws and regulations as implemented by the State of Louisiana in regards to this issue. In summary: state law requires that whenever "University of Louisiana" is used, it must also contain a city designation. There is absolutely nothing prohibiting the use of "Louisiana" singularly.

3. "Louisiana" has been used on all of the school's athletic venues (football, baseball, basketball, etc.) for at least ten years. It is on all the school's uniforms, programs, etc.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-yQgj_efLdi8/VHvWC2WbHXI/AAAAAAAAAB0/l9QByM7VSGQ/s1600/10533543_829910250355417_4381666850860170087_n.png

http://www.ragincajuns.com/images/2015/4/22/rp_primary_04222015ulbaseball339.jpg

You have to ask yourself, if this is 'illegal' or otherwise prohibited, why hasn't anything been done to have the university stop these practices? Over the last 10-15 years?

Given all of the above facts, why are some Wikipedia editors allowed to over-ride this issue?

Pncomeaux (talk) 12:37, 28 April 2015 (UTC)pncomeaux

Edit war in lead of this and related pages

Hello, the edit war over the past few weeks regarding the lead is getting ridiculous. As established in countless conversations, the current consensus for the WP:CommonName is Louisiana–Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns. In my opinion, as long as this remains the title of the page and the first and bolded title in the lead, other common names to include Louisiana Ragin' Cajuns, are perfectly acceptable within the lead. Even better, though, might be a section in this main article on the branding/name of the program which covers all names and the discussion surrounding it in a neutral fashion. If independent media references to the program (such as ESPN, Yahoo Sports, CBS Sports, and the Sun Belt Conference) pick up the use of Louisiana then we can and should revisit the page title. Billcasey905 (talk) 20:17, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Hi. I agree that it is ridiculous. The idea that Louisiana-Lafayette is often referred to as "Louisiana" is inaccurate, which is why that line should be speedily removed from the lead. ESPN most often uses Louisiana-Lafayette, UL Lafayette, or ULL. Yahoo Sports uses Louisiana-Lafayette, La.-Lafayette, and ULL. CBS Sports uses Louisiana-Lafayette, UL Lafayette, and ULL. Fox Sports uses Louisiana-Lafayette and UL-Laf. The Sun Belt Conference uses UL Lafayette and UL-L. The NCAA uses La.-Lafayette. None of those independent media sources often reference Louisiana-Lafayette as Louisiana. Treydavis3 (talk) 05:52, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

What is ridiculous? What is ridiculous is that a school is being prohibited from selecting its own brand. And you have to ask the inevitable question: WHY? As long as the brand name is legal within that state, then there is no reason why certain Wikipedia editors are prohibiting the school from doing so. The usage of "Louisuana" is perfectly legal and the school should be allowed to pursue its branding wishes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pncomeaux (talk • contribs) 11:29, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Please see WP:CommonName and the many discussions on this and subordinate pages to see that it is not just "certain" editors, but the consensus of many. The name of an article is determined by what independent, reliable sources most frequently use to describe it. The school's branding wishes have no impact on the title of the article, unless it is picked up by the independent media. As I stated previously, if the media (such as ESPN, Yahoo Sports, CBS Sports, and the Sun Belt Conference) begins referring to the program as "Louisiana," I and most other editors will change our position. I stand by my suggestion that a neutral section be added to the article discussing these names. For a brief example of how this might be handled, see the third paragraph of South Carolina Gamecocks. Billcasey905 (talk) 12:35, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

How would a school have any hope of changing its brand and having other media start using it if it cannot even get a simple blurb added in Wikipedia? Again, this very simple and involves two very basic questions: 1) Is it the school's wish to be branded in a certain way? In this case, there is no doubt that it is the school's wishes. 2) Are there any legal issues that preclude the usage of that brand? Clearly, there are no legal issues. The school has invested tens of thousands of dollars, over a period of at least ten years to brand itself "Louisiana'.....that brand is on all of the venues (football field, baseball field, basketball court, etc.), on all of its uniforms, etc. Therefore there is clearly no reason whatsoever that this verbiage should not be included in wiki pages that discuss this athletic program. 12.161.111.81 (talk) 12:53, 27 May 2015 (UTC)Pncomeaux

Again, WP:CommonName requires that independent, reliable sources determine the common name. Plenty of schools have been able to change their brand through the media. See WKU Hilltoppers and Lady Toppers (formerly Western Kentucky), Omaha Mavericks (Nebraska–Omaha), Charlotte 49ers (UNC Charlotte), and USC Upstate Spartans (South Carolina Upstate, South Carolina-Spartanburg). I suggest adding a section to the article discussing this. Billcasey905 (talk) 13:18, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

This comment below sums it up very nicely. How can a school have a licensed logo, yet the name above it in Wikipedia refers to a different name? "Interesting comment. What is THE University of Ohio. Is it Ohio U. or Ohio State? More to the point, has Ohio State demanded Ohio use Ohio-Athens? In any case LSU is firmly established as the flagship university for the state of Louisiana. Still in Louisiana, from what I understand if you refer to University of Louisiana or just Louisiana in college sports, most folks would believe you're referring to the school in Lafayette. If you say LSU just about everyone would believe you're referring to the school in Baton Rouge. Also, the school in Lafayette have officially branded all of their athletic teams as the Louisiana Ragin' Cajuns. It's a trademarked official name that the school uses for its athletic teams. It seems more than a little bizarre that on Wikipedia "consensus" was reached that it should not use its official trademarked name. It's almost akin to reaching a "consensus" that we should refer to Muhammad Ali as Cassius Clay.G. Capo (talk) 01:58, 27 March 2014 (UTC)" 12.161.111.81 (talk) 15:56, 27 May 2015 (UTC) Also, and as stated before, how the sports networks refer to the school are not the only consideration in this issue: if you google "Louisiana Ragin Cajuns football" you will receive many more hits than the officious "Louisiana-Lafayette Ragin Cajuns football." The same is true for the other sports.12.161.111.81 (talk) 16:08, 27 May 2015 (UTC)Pncomeaux (talk) 16:09, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm not going to debate any longer. The established, accepted consensus reaffirmed several times in the past few years is Louisiana–Lafayette. I have expressed the reasons that most editors use to justify this. If major independent media outlets, to include the Ragin' Cajuns own conference, start calling the school Louisiana, I and most others will change our position. Until then, there really is nothing else to discuss. Pointing to other arguments is simply distracting from the fundamental point. I've given a suggestion for how to improve the article and address your concerns in another way. I recommend putting some energy into that rather than constructing straw man arguments. Billcasey905 (talk) 19:06, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: I agree 100% with Billcasey905. I'm fine with it saying that it is often referred to **insert name** with the source that is given, that's why I didn't revert Pncomeaux's edits. Until the other nicknames become a common name, it should stay as is. Corkythehornetfan 19:47, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

"If major independent media outlets, to include the Ragin' Cajuns own conference, start calling the school Louisiana, I and most others will change our position."

As of now, not only does the NCAA itself refer to them as "Louisiana," so does ESPN. Also various other national 'independent media outlets.'

It is therefore more than past time to rectify this error.

References

Continued vandalism of pages

This is beyond absurd: despite the fact that a compromise has been reached on this issue, a couple of people still feel the need to vandalize these pages.

As per below, the compromise that was agreed to (over a year ago) was that leaving in 'often referred' Is the solution:

"I agree 100% with Billcasey905. I'm fine with it saying that it is often referred to **insert name** with the source that is given, that's why I didn't revert Pncomeaux's edits. Until the other nicknames become a common name, it should stay as is. Corkythehornetfan 19:47, 27 May 2015 (UTC)"

Yet people continue to wreak havoc with the pages.

It must be noted that the school's legal, acceptable nickname of 'Louisusana Ragin Cajuns' can in NO WAY be considered to be "misleading propaganda."Pncomeaux (talk) 18:41, 1 August 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pncomeaux (talk • contribs) 18:28, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

My stance on this remains unchanged. I'm fine with a note regarding the school's preferred branding in the lead, with an appropriate source. As media organizations still have not adopted this name, the article title and first name listed in the lead should be "Louisiana–Lafayette." If and when most major media organizations (to include the Sun Belt Conference) coalesce around another name, including Louisiana, I will support a page move and new lead as appropriate.

I also still think it would be useful to include a well-sourced, NPOV section on this branding dispute, to include the views of all stakeholders, on the main athletics page for the school. Given all the back and forth, there's obviously a story here, even if I'm not familiar with the details. Billcasey905 (talk) 19:38, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

First, let’s establish that my edits are not vandalism as was accused pncomeaux. My edits are to remove and correct misleading propaganda that is inserted into Louisiana-Lafayette related articles by pncomeaux. Wikipedia is no place for that biased and misleading propaganda as articles are supposed to be written in a neutral point of view with accurate information. That tagline that pncomeaux adds to every Louisiana-Lafayette article (often referred to by the nickname ‘’’Louisiana’’’ or ‘’’Louisiana Ragin' Cajuns’’’) is simply false. The reference used by pncomeaux is to the University’s branding guidelines and does not support the claim that is erroneously being made and duplicated by pncomeaux that the “Louisiana” nickname is often used. To make that false claim accurate, one would need to change “often” to “rarely,” which would have no place at the top of every ULL related article lead. The fact is that independent, reliable sources do not use the “Louisiana” abbreviation. A much more often used and appropriate name would be UL Lafayette. Furthermore, pncomeaux takes his misleading propaganda to another level by inserted that untrue tagline to evey ULL related article including coaches and facilities. That propaganda is beyond the scope of those articles. Also in those other articles, pncomeaux insists on bolding the rarely used nickname and essentially stating it twice back-to-back in articles unrelated to that title, which I’m confident that does not comply with Wikipedia’s notability standards. By pncomeaux’s standards, if that one rarely used name is inserted into all those articles, then the dozen or so of other nicknames for Louisiana-Lafayette should also be included, many of which are used much more often than the misleading “Louisiana” propaganda. Thus, the solution is to remove the propaganda and insert a neutral point of view explanation of the controversy in the main article. Spotteddeer (talk) 20:41, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Propaganda? That is just another word for an organization's branding and marketing strategies. Nothing wrong with that.....no matter how many times you repeat the word 'propaganda.' The universitiy's useage of the stand-alone reference/nickname of Louisiana or Louisiana Ragin' Cajuns is perfectly legal and acceptable. This is supported by a footnote explaining the school's position on the matter. It therefore totally acceptable to include this information on each and every article discussing the school. Further, this issue has been discussed ad nauseum, and a compromise was finally reached over s year ago. It is puzzling why someone would suddenly start disrupting this resolution......so yes, that would have to be considered vandalism........especially considerering the person doing these edits has a newly created ID, and whose sole actions are to edit these pages.Pncomeaux (talk) 21:51, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

characterization of the non WP:COMMONNAME(s)

The lead states:

Louisiana–Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns, often referred to by the nickname Louisiana or Louisiana Ragin' Cajuns,1 are the athletic teams of the University of Louisiana at Lafayette.

That lone citation fails to establish:

1. the athletic teams are often referred to by the nickname "Louisiana," or
2. the athletic teams are often referred to by the nickname "Louisiana Ragin' Cajuns," or
3. that "Louisiana" is ever used alone in any manner

Some options to resolve this include replacing with new citation(s) which support both "often" and the two callout names, or more likely simply rewriting this to characterize the statement as the school's preference of names which would be supported by the existing citation. UW Dawgs (talk) 07:41, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

I think the model is going to be ala Arkansas–Little Rock Trojans, where the school's desired branding/re-branding has not yet overcome WP:COMMMONNAME and we state "branded as" (as branding is controlled by the University and can be cited). That might resolve as:

Louisiana–Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns (branded as the Louisiana Ragin' Cajuns)1 are the athletic teams of the University of Louisiana at Lafayette.

With ensusing, identical cleanup of the various team articles, labels, section headers, etc which currently use substantially identical text and should use the WP:COMMONNAME. Cheers, UW Dawgs (talk) 18:00, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

To address your first part, I submit to you that the teams are indeed often referred to as 'Louisiana,' and 'Louisiana Ragin Cajuns': as previously stated, these names are emblazoned on each of the teams uniforms, and venues (football, baseball/softball fields, basket courts, etc.). Therefore, each time the teams play anywhere, or their venues are televised, the branding is clearly on display, which is a form of referral.

Secondly, i have no issue with the term 'branded as' substituted for the 'commonly referred to' verbiage. However, there is absolutely no reason why this can't be included in each article that refers to the teams. That solution removes both issues: it lists the WP common name, while also informing readers of the preferred branding of the school.Pncomeaux (talk) 19:28, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Based upon evidence of the naming schemata of major outlets. I am thoroughly convinced that Louisiana Lafayette is the common name, although the university would like to be known as Louisiana such as other schools, (AR)-Little Rock, (New York)-Buffalo, (W)estern (K)entucky etc. However, the branding/variously does have some precedence e.g. Alabama Crimson Tide football" (variously "Alabama", "UA" or "Bama"). and season articles such as 1975 Alabama Crimson Tide football team include similar notation. However, if the addition of the variously were added in the Alabama season articles today, I would be adamantly opposed to including them. But I don't see the harm in the opening paragraph of the athletic program and the individual sports pages of including something along those lines. I would be opposed to utilizing it solely on the pages. I wouldn't advocate for it's use at all in the article title, navboxes, or on other team's articles such as ULM, LSU, hell even the 2016 Georgia Southern Eagles football team. IMO based upon the evidence given WP:Commonname ULL must be used in those instances.UCO2009bluejay (talk) 20:18, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

• Comment – I'm tired of dealing with this, so this is my final comment: Although Louisiana garners more results than Louisiana–Lafayette, Louisiana–Lafayette is used by ESPN, NCAA.com, Yahoo! Sports, NBC Sports, and Fox Sports. CBS Sports uses UL Lafayette, as well as the Sun Belt Conference. Clearly, Louisiana–Lafayette is the WP:COMMONNAME. We also do not need to include that they are branded as 'such and such' in every gosh darn article that mentions the Ragin' Cajuns... just the main Athletics article and its sub-articles. I'd favor UW Dawg's suggestion and follow Little Rock's article. Corkythehornetfan (ping me) 20:44, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Again, there is zero reason (gosh darn or otherwise) why the 30-some letters of 'branded as the 'Louisiana Ragin' Cajuns' cannot be included when the common name is used. It's not excessive, yet informs readers of the rebranding.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pncomeaux (talk • contribs) 21:02, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

When someone visits a page that is related to the Athletics articles, chance are they have already visited one of the athletic articles and they're already aware of the branding situation. Honestly, I believe that people (other than the university and yourself) couldn't care less about the branding. If they did, everyone, including the media, would be using the school's branding. When you have people from Louisiana, who also has friends attending the university, say they've never heard it be referred to as "Louisiana Ragin' Cajuns", that should be your clue. Corkythehornetfan (ping me) 21:28, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

• I support "branded as" is a better way of putting it. "Often referred to" is just incorrect, since they're more often referred to as Louisiana–Lafayette. On Wikipedia it's usually the other way around. More accurate would be "The Louisiana Ragin' Cajuns, often referred to as Louisiana–Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns". But I don't think either of those would be best here. See China for another example of precedence. Lizard (talk) 21:23, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

LOL: people from Louisiana Is as an avowed lsu fan, and as such has an extremely biased position in this matter......lsu and its fans are the main entities trying to stop the rebranding effort of the Cajuns. The 'evidence' he has supplied is strictly anecdotal, extremely weak and without a doubt directed soley by his bias.

Further: given all of the debate of this subject, are you really saying no one cares about it? OMG.

Fnally, zero valid reason given why the 30-odd letters, 'branded as the 'Louisiana Ragin' Cajuns, should not be included when the common name is used.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Pncomeaux (talk • contribs) 21:50, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Wait, so because he's an LSU fan, that's not OK., but yet for someone close to the subject like yourself, who is a fan, it's O.K. because you're biased as well? That's what you're saying... Corkythehornetfan (ping me) 22:27, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

No....what i am saying is that you fully embrace and support those who are oppose the school's branding efforts, while disparaging those who oppose your POV. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pncomeaux (talk • contribs) 22:32, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

That is exactly what you are doing, my friend. Anyone who opposes to include the school's branding into the article -- which isn't the common name -- you fully oppose their opinion and will go so far as to research Wiki users personal life, which is clearly against Wikipedia policies. Anyone who attempts to disagree with you, their edits are considered "vandalism" and they are the ones who are in the wrong. It's never you, it's always the other editor. It clearly isn't vandalism, it is a disagreement... which then leads to you edit-warring with others... something your contributions clearly show. (Maybe you should read WP:Vandalism and Not Vandalism?) One last thing, I believe in my first comment in this section, the very last sentence reads: I'd favor UW Dawg's suggestion and follow Little Rock's article. Therefore, I never said I wasn't in favor of including it in the main articles, I said did say that it doesn't need to be in every article that mentions something about ULL Athletics (e.g. the Big West Conference or LA Tech football). Corkythehornetfan (ping me) 02:28, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

So to sum up your beliefs, I am the only wrong who has ever done anything wrong. I am wrong to point out when others are in violation of a policy, or if they have obvious bias which is CLEARLY affecting edits and comments......but you totally ignore their transgressions. Even after I apologize, delete verbiage I shouldn't have included, you again accuse me of the wrong doing, completly ignoring the fact that I have taken the necessary corrective actions.

Among other things, you have cursed at me and M ade untrue and unsubstantiated claims about where I work, etc. But I guess in your mind this is all acceptable, since you are the one doing it.

When folks like people from Louisiana make unnecessary edits on this page, knowing full well that the whole matter is under discussion, and especially considering the fact that he is an advid fan of lsu (who are the folks most responsible for ensuring that the branding efforts are defeated)....he is the innocent party and I am the wrong for undoing his edit. Yes, that is a fair and impartial way to look at it, 'my friend.' — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pncomeaux (talk • contribs) 12:19, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

I actually had no idea of any rebranding plans of ULL until just this week, when I looked further into it after it was brought to my attention. No offense, but LSU and ULL are not even in the same stratosphere. And I didn't even attend LSU. I have much better things to do with my time than fight some non-existent branding war. Enough of this straw man argument. The name is Louisiana–Lafayette in an overwhelming majority of sources, which is the only thing that matters on Wikipedia. When a fraction of sources start referring to them as "Louisiana", then maybe it'll warrant a bit more mention. Lizard (talk) 18:21, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

• I too support "branded as" in lieu of the present verbiage. And also think it can be included whenever the school's 'common name' is used.Pncomeaux (talk) 22:41, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose a "branded as" parenthetical, here and especially in separate articles where ULL is simply named. Comment WP:COMMONNAME controls. Wikipedia has no role to play in either furthering or frustrating a school's attempts to give itself a new name. Accordingly the school's rebranding efforts should be noted if those efforts have been the subject of third-party coverage. If they have not been so noted (and have not taken hold in popular parlance) then they're irrelevant to the article and its scope and should not be included, even if the school might like it that way. JohnInDC (talk) 22:46, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

To amplify on the foregoing - colleges and universities, like many (most?) other profit and not-for-profit organizations, undertake PR efforts of one kind or another to shape their images in the way they'd like to be seen. A firm's self-interested efforts do not, in and of themselves, warrant attention or elaboration in Wikipedia articles, for the simple reason that Wikipedia is not, and should not be, an extension of those firms' public relations offices. If and when a firm's efforts to mold its own image becomes the subject of coverage (positive or negative), or, begins to take hold as evidenced by the way third party sources describe the firm, then those efforts deserve mention. Otherwise - not. For these reasons I think the article should 1) stick to COMMONNAME and 2) not include a section effectively repeating the school's PR efforts absent some independent indication that such efforts are otherwise notable. JohnInDC (talk) 02:33, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

I have tremendous respect for JohnInDC and cannot really disagree, here. Bluntly, there is obvious Wikipedia:Tendentious editing throughout all manner of articles related to ULL athletics (main/here, team, conference, opponent, rivalry, players, coaches, etc) which is replacing the COMMONNAME and obvious derivatives with "Louisiana Ragin' Cajuns." From that global perspective, how should we proceed? I had stubbed a 4Q RfC-style poll so that we could definitely resolve this across multiple types of articles, but perhaps that is unnecessary. UW Dawgs (talk) 03:42, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

If there is to be any mention of ULL's rebranding efforts anywhere, it would be here, in this article, which is the one about ULL athletics - and I am not persuaded it's appropriate here. It is completely inappropriate where ULL is mentioned in other articles and my intention is to begin removing those references as I come across them. It's not really a whole lot different than adding, "a global leader in mobile technology" every time Samsung is mentioned. Again - and I guess this I am directing this to @Pncomeaux: as much as anyone - it isn't Wikipedia's role to repeat the declarations of the PR / marketing department of a school or company or advocacy organization. JohnInDC (talk) 13:52, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

1. With all do respect, comparing the official name of a school is not all the same thing as using a SLOGAN for a company, e.g. your Samsung example, so that is totally off the mark. Totally.
2. This is most definitely NOT a PR/marketing effort....no more than Alabama Crimson Tide football. It is the official, school-sanctioned nickname.
3. Question for JohnInDC: suppose someone is watching a televised Cajuns football game, that is being played at Cajun Field. Curious to learn more about the team/school they look them up on Wikipedia. Despite that they are watching players with the stand alone reference of 'Louisiana' on their jerseys, as well as the name 'Louisiana Ragin Cajuns' emblazoned on the field, as well as logos, etc., everywhere, when they get to the FB page they will only see the name 'Louisiana-Lafayette Ragin Cajuns' listed. Does this honestly seem right to you? Why should there be two conflicting names, when in actualality there is only one name of the school. I mean I can understand (but do not agree with) the whole common name issue, but still do not see why the further clarification and reinforcement of the actual, offical, legal, nickname cannot also be included, so that readers will get the entire story. Isn't that the purpose of Wikipedia....to impart the most knowledge possible of a subject to the reader?Pncomeaux (talk) 19:17, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

This entire discussion is expressly about branding, a term you've been using throughout. A brand is "a set of marketing and communication methods that help to distinguish a company from competitors and create a lasting impression in the minds of customers". The school's efforts to encourage the public to adopt a new name for its athletic teams are, again in your words, "just another word for an organization's branding and marketing strategies". Indeed the ULL link that sets out this rebranding comes out of the Communications and Marketing department of the school. So whether it's a firm's slogan or a school's (trademarked) name for itself, it's PR and it's marketing. And as I've said above, Wikipedia articles should not be edited in the service of an organization's determination of how its image should be portrayed. The issue is not what the school calls itself, or wants itself to be called, but rather, under WP:COMMONNAME, what it is called. As for confusion, I'm not sure what the problem is. Type in "cajuns football" into Wikipedia and the first page that shows up is Louisiana–Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns football. I hardly think the "Lafayette" is going to throw a reader so far off that they will conclude they've landed on the wrong page.

Again if the school's efforts to name rebrand itself becomes itself the focus of media coverage (like the "!" in "Yahoo!") then, sure, note it here in the intro or in its own section - but if that, then here only. It has no place as a little qualifier in articles that merely mention or link to ULL - again, it not being Wikipedia's place to hurry along an organization's rebranding efforts. JohnInDC (talk) 22:32, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Apologies - I see you've been linking to another ULL page, here, which link is not expressly part of the marketing department. JohnInDC (talk) 22:41, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Here's one example of the rebranding effort (or not?) finding some independent media attention - http://www.nola.com/politics/index.ssf/2013/10/ull_lafayette_lsu_rajin_cajuns.html A couple more of those and I think a brief "rebranding" section might be appropriate in this article (but again not collaterally, in separate articles). JohnInDC (talk) 22:56, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Here is my read on the consensus to date on the above:

1. There is no disagreement that "Louisiana–Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns" remains the WP:COMMONNAME and significant disagreement with the ongoing underming of its usage in a littany of ULL-related articles.
2. There is universal agreement that the university itself prefers the term "Louisiana Ragin' Cajuns" and the related derivatives, but general dismissal of this fact's importance in context to broad WP usage on ULL articles.
3. Recent systemic edits which undermined (removed, replaced) COMMONNAME should be reverted to the prior COMMONNAME or similar, direct derivatives on ULL team, player, coach, conference, rivaly and similar articles.
4. No one believes the "often referred to by the nickname Louisiana or Louisiana Ragin' Cajuns" assertion in the lead of this article (which prompted this thread) is supported in any way by the existing citation. Without calling this final point to be consensus to require use of the above offered text or stifling further discussion, the lead has been updated to the offered language which incorporates a brief, parenthetical reference to the school's preferred name to cure the unsupported language. (Note, the lead in Navy Midshipmen has an interesting example of both allowed and disallowed alternatives.)

Yes? UW Dawgs (talk) 21:59, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the initiative. Me, I'd omit the "branded" parenthetical from the lead as 1) a bit confusing (branded by whom?) and 2) too far beneath general notice to warrant placement there. JohnInDC (talk) 01:06, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Reverting to consensus usage - There is long-standing consensus throughout related projects (Wikipedia:WikiProject College football, WikiProject College Basketball, etc) to use COMMONNAME and direct derivates to describe college teams within collegiate athletic articles. This discussion reiterated the consensus of an unchanged COMMONNAME and that we should use it. Per that existing consensus and as reiterated above, I've begun to unwind the numerous edits which replaced COMMMONNAME and/or pushed the University's preferred branding term(s) into a wide range of articles with no reasonable relationship to the branding terms(s). UW Dawgs (talk) 15:51, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

"If major independent media outlets, to include the Ragin' Cajuns own conference, start calling the school Louisiana, I and most others will change our position."

As of now, not only does the NCAA itself refer to them as "Louisiana," so does ESPN. Also various other national 'independent media outlets.'

It is therefore more than past time to rectify this error.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Pncomeaux (talk • contribs) 18:45, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for initiating the Talk discussion to discuss/change the current consensus. This discussion (at top) references multiple media outlets and some have indeed changed their DB-driven descriptions. My suggestion is that you open a new discussion section on this Talk page and broadly demonstrate current behavior from a variety of WP:RS, such as local and national editorial stories and the page/content headers seen in the national sports portals (which are DB-driven, rather than from a sports writer). You're under no obligation to do any of the above, but this context and depth would clearly demonstrate whether usage has changed and therefore if the COMMONNAME should be changed accordingly. UW Dawgs (talk) 05:11, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

References

Louisiana at Lafayette monikers

There is a dicussion at Talk:University of Louisiana at Lafayette#viability of UL in which you may be interested. UW Dawgs (talk) 21:08, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

University and athletic names

There is a discussion in which you might be interested, regarding the university and athletics names used within the University of Louisiana System, at Talk:University of Louisiana System#University and athletic names. Cheers, UW Dawgs (talk) 15:32, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

School name per ESPN and Yahoo Sports

I hate to pick at a scab, but it appears there's reason to revisit the common name of this team. I note that both ESPN and Yahoo now refer to the teams as "Louisiana." These are certainly two of the leading national media outlets covering sports - a more detailed review of others may point to a need to revisit the consensus reached and reaffirmed above in previous years. Billcasey905 (talk) 01:07, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

@Billcasey905: Are any of the others using 'Louisiana' as well? Local media and the Sun Belt Conference are picking up on the name as well. Corkythehornetfan (ping me) 01:25, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

CBS Sports, USA Today and MSN have not changed, but Fox and NBC Sports have. I'm not sure who else to check, but it seems like it is catching on in media, if not fully adopted yet. Billcasey905 (talk) 01:36, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

4 out of 7 ain't bad... plus the conference (who once went against the school branding). MSN basketball uses "Louisiana", so they can't make up their mind! Sports-reference.com (basketball-reference.com) uses "Louisiana–Lafayette"... same as their football section. The Orlando Sentinel uses "Louisiana", so it's reaching other local newspapers. I'm half-and-half on this... Corkythehornetfan (ping me) 17:57, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

I agree - the tide's changing. I guess I sort of feel that when it comes to dislodging an older, established name, the 3d party reports need to be pretty unequivocal so I'm still a bit wary of this but it's closer for sure. JohnInDC (talk) 19:16, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

Other than the link itself, and the acronym ull rarther than LOU (I know Louisville) The NCAA uses Louisiana, I say it's time. [3]UCO2009bluejay (talk) 03:33, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

I think it's time to start simply using Louisiana for their articles as well. So many news organizations are using it.--SportsMaster (talk) 06:08, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Adding page move request.--Airbill (talk) 21:12, 13 December 2017 (CST)

Requested move 14 December 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved despite the lengthy text, there is actually a pretty clear consensus here that a common name has been established in the sourcing. TonyBallioni (talk) 02:23, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

---

Louisiana–Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns → Louisiana Ragin' Cajuns – It's time to make this move. Most national sports media, and all local media, are referring to sports programs at the University of Louisiana at Lafayette as "Louisiana Ragin' Cajuns". Many in-state media also use Louisiana, and some continue to use Louisiana-Lafayette and ULL; however, the ones who do use this outdated reference have ulterior motives to do so. As for the abbreviation, the school guide requests LA, which would fit stylistically with Louisiana. Here is a list of media that uses Louisiana Ragin' Cajuns: ESPN CBS NBC Sun Belt Conference MSN Fox Sports Daily Advertiser (local paper) KATC TV (local television stations) Yahoo Airbill (talk) 03:21, 14 December 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 16:58, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose move. There's certainly an argument to be made in favor of a move, but one thing that supposedly supports that argument (the school guide) is a first-party source, and I have yet to see a reliable third-party source abbreviate them as "LA". So it comes down to usage in third-party reliable sources, and at this point, you yourself admit that "Louisiana-Lafayette" is still in use by some sources. In addition, "Louisiana-Lafayette" matches the common name of the school, as this university is not the flagship of the University of Louisiana System. Therefore, I believe that the current name should stay intact to avoid confusion with fellow Sun Belt member and UL System school Louisiana-Monroe.  ONR  (talk)  05:34, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Response: I agree, third party sources should be used. Accordingly, I have provided seven major national sources, along with two local sources, all of which use Louisiana Ragin' Cajuns. I've also provided a link to the conference's website, which refers to the school as Louisiana. While I admit that support for 'LA' is not as generally accepted, there has been progress on that front: Fox Sports box score . As for any confusion between Louisiana and Louisiana-Monroe, this issue has been accepted by the administration of Louisiana-Monroe, which did not object to the school's use of Louisiana Ragin' Cajuns, and which has decided to focus on promoting its own brand as ULM. Monroe News-Star article Finally, according to Billcasey905 from way back in April 2015: "If major independent media outlets, to include the Ragin' Cajuns own conference, start calling the school Louisiana, I and most others will change our position." This has been more than amply demonstrated to have occurred. Airbill (talk) 13:45, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

NCAA statistics page reference to Louisiana: Link Airbill (talk) 14:14, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Comment: I don't know. Usage at ESPN seems inconsistent at best. In actual practice they seem to stick "Louisiana-Lafayette", see by way of example the many recent columns at this link: http://www.espn.com/college-football/team/_/id/309/louisiana-ragin%27-cajuns (yes I acknowledge the page title); and indeed the network seems either to be not fully committed, or confused, by the new nomenclature - http://www.theadvertiser.com/story/news/local/2017/10/13/ul-espn-were-cajuns-not-leopards-wildcats/762513001/ . The school's rebranding efforts are certainly taking hold but I am not sure we're there yet. JohnInDC (talk) 14:14, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

• Support move. Per comments above by UCO2009bluejay and SportsMaster and citations provided by Airbill. The right decision was made in 2015 not to make this move despite the U's branding efforts. However, the rebranding has now taken hold with the majority of third-party sources referring to the program as "Louisiana Ragin' Cajuns". Cbl62 (talk) 17:13, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
• Comment: Shouldn't it include the apostrophe? —BarrelProof (talk) 19:33, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

Comment: If you mean "Louisiana's Ragin Cajuns," that would be no. The correct way is "Louisiana Ragin Cajuns." Pncomeaux (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:43, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

Comment I think BarrelProof was talking about the apostrophe at the the end of "Ragin". Jweiss11 (talk) 20:04, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

Response: Yes, it should be Louisiana Ragin' Cajuns, with the apostrophe occurring after Ragin'. I've updated the page move request. Airbill (talk) 07:27, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

• Support per my statement before the move request it is time, the sports team pages and season pages for 2017- should be moved as well, but the university page must remain the same under no circumstance should references to ULL be changed to UL.UCO2009bluejay (talk) 21:10, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose move. At best, I'm seeing a mixed bag in terms of how the national media is treating this (this is one of those few areas where I wouldn't put much stock in what the local media says here - they'll generally parrot whatever the department puts out, as their jobs are dependent on access from the department). For a potential move request with lots of long-time contention like this one has historically had, I'd want to see darn-near 100% unanimity before I'd vote to change away from a solid, long-standing consensus like this one has had. Ejgreen77 (talk) 23:23, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
• Neutral, but if it's moved, there needs to be an apostrophe after "Ragin". – Right now I can lean either way, so I am remaining neutral. ESPN seems to use a mix box both and NBC Sports uses Louisiana. It seems to be a mix between the two. I'm going with consensus unless someone convinces me otherwise. Corky ^{Buzz by the Hornet's Nest} 00:23, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Support but move to Louisiana Ragin' Cajuns. After I thought it about some more, I have decided to change my decision to support for a couple of different reasons. A) I believe there are enough sources to justify the new name (see section above); B) I'm tired of having these discussions and reverting IPs and new users because they want to have the article be branded with the school; C) Not everyone will be happy either way and we need to put an end to this mess; and D) This move will eventually take place so why not just do it now? Corky ^{Buzz by the Hornet's Nest} 21:21, 17 December 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose move. I acknowledge that the new name is taking hold, but I really don't like the idea of enlisting Wikipedia to further the school's expressly-stated "rebranding" efforts: "Our reference and our abbreviation will definitely improve our visibility on a national level, which improves our national brand." [4] - and like Ejgreen77 above, think that renaming here should come after the changeover is really pretty unequivocally established among the third party sources. JohnInDC (talk) 01:05, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
• NOTE Louisiana–Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns football, Louisiana–Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns men's basketball, Louisiana–Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns women's basketball, Louisiana–Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns baseball, and Louisiana–Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns softball should also move contigent on a successful move request here. UCO2009bluejay (talk) 21:45, 17 December 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose for now. Prior efforts which achieved consensus on WP:COMMONNAME included evaluation of db-driven strings (schedule, stats, headers) across major portals, local editorial prose, and national editorial prose. Since that has not occurred to date, there is insufficient evidence to reach a new consensus. Special:Contributions/Airbill (5 edits in 2012 and 2 edits in 2016) recently reappeared to initiate this discussion. While WP:AGF, there are obvious and long-standing WP:GAME and WP:DE elements across multiple editors to change the consensus. It really is not that hard for proponents. They simply need to show evidence of change (and status-quo where relevant) to update the common name, and other editors will be convinced to support. UW Dawgs (talk) 21:50, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

Response. What about the several examples I provided above that listed major national and local instances where Louisiana Ragin' Cajuns was used? If you saw those examples and still have this objection, I guess I don't understand what your objection is, because the samples provided seem to me to provide the proof that you require. Airbill (talk) 07:25, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

• Support As evidence that it is indeed time to make this move, we need look no further than one of the 'Oppose' move comments from A. Foley from back in July of 2013: ".....Every major media outlet refers to them as Louisiana–Lafayette. Their own Sun Belt Conference refers to them as Louisiana–Lafayette and the other school as Louisiana–Monroe." So to reiterate the obvious, most major media outlets now refer to them as "Louisiana," this includes, but is not limited to ESPN, CBS, NBC, Fox, MSN, and Yahoo. To further prove that they have now surpassed the bar as set by A. Foley, the SBC conference itself references not only "Louisiana" for the school, but also "ULM" for the school in Monroe. The bar had been set, and has now been achieved. Pncomeaux (talk)
  • Comment User talk:Pncomeaux displays a two-year history of WP:DE and WP:EDITWARRING. Pncomeaux shows WP:SPA and possible WP:SOCK issues. So the above is not a change of opinion based on any new evidence, rather a restatement of their standing non-consensus view. UW Dawgs (talk) 04:25, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Response: Wrong. Despite your personal attack on me, based on inaccurate information, you did nothing to invalidate my post. I did indeed provide evidence to support my opinion: the school has attained the support for the name, if nothing else, based on the previous standards that were set when the move was opposed. Pncomeaux (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:31, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

• Support move Seeing that a majority of national media outlets, including those who were often previously cited to oppose the move, I now support this change. I know it will take some more time for other media outlets to pick up the name, but I think this has achieved critical mass. Billcasey905 (talk) 01:21, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
• Support There now seems to be widespread use of this name in sources, and it'll only become more widespread from here on. Lizard (talk) 16:45, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

By my count, the votes are 2-1 in favor of change. Is this enough for a consensus? Airbill (talk) 01:52, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Consensus on Wikipedia is based more on the strength of the arguments rather than a simple headcount. It'll be up to the closing admin to determine. Lizard (talk) 04:01, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for the reply.Airbill (talk) 05:06, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

• Support I support the move. There are so many other media outlets using Louisiana. It doesn't matter to me if they are not the University of Louisiana, Texas is still the University of Texas at Austin.--SportsMaster (talk) 04:32, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Sub articles, categories, navboxes, etc.

Since the result of the requested move was move, I believe I have moved all navboxes, sub-articles, and 2017–present season articles due to the requested move result. I have requested that the categories be renamed and replaced as well. I have not, however, gone into the articles where the navboxes are being used and replaced it with the new name. If I have missed one and you catch it, please fix it or notify me or someone else. Thanks, Corky 03:56, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

There are 194 deleted edits sitting under this title, from a previous cut-paste move. I will be temporarily be deleting things and moving pages to draft space to repair this old cut-paste. Don't panic while my work is in process; it will all come back together soon. Thanks, wbm1058 (talk) 17:31, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

 Done My 16 logged actions to accomplish this history merge. – wbm1058 (talk) 18:17, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

Nickname

Pinging whether you opposed the move for was in favor: Airbill, Old Naval Rooftops, JohnInDC, Cbl62, UCO2009bluejay, Ejgreen77, Billcasey905, Lizard the Wizard, SportsMaster:

What's the opinions on moving pre–2017 articles? Pncomeaux is moving every single athletics sub-article (pre–2017 seasons) – something I disagree with – to align with the new article's name. My primary reason for disagreeing with this is that "Louisiana Ragin' Cajuns" was not established as the WP:COMMONNAME until this year, therefore making the pre–2017 season articles inaccurate. Thoughts? Corky 23:34, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

Would it not be massively confusing to have both sets of names out there? It is the common name now, so why wouldn't every single athletics sub-article be reflective of the correct name? At least post 1999.

Because what I mentioned in the second to last sentence: the WP:COMMONNAME wasn't established until late 2017. Pretty simple. Most media articles read "Louisiana–Lafayette" pre 2017... Corky 23:50, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, but I strongly disagree: the average Wikipedia user knows nothing about WP:COMMONNAME so would just be confused by the fact that they know the school as one thing, to only see them referenced as something else, (with no explanation as to why) when they do research here. I don't see why they, and the school itself, should be subjected to this. It is just seems unnecessary and taking the WP:COMMONNAME to an extreme level.

But since this has now become such an issue, I will not make any further changes until another consensus is made. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pncomeaux (talk • contribs) 00:34, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

In my opinion, it is the same as when a school drops the "Lady" moniker from their women's sports teams (i.e. Mississippi State, TCU Horned Frogs). MS State used "Lady Bulldogs" until 2016 and TCU used "Lady Frogs" until the 2009–10 season. Same goes for the Tennessee Volunteers... they dropped "Lady Vols" from their women's team except basketball, in 2015. All pages prior to those years use the old name for this very reason. ULL is no different. Corky 01:02, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

Old name stays with old articles. They were "Louisiana-Lafayette" before, and now they aren't. They weren't "Louisiana" before, and they don't become that now retroactively. Any confusion - and there won't be much - is cleared up the moment they click on the wiki link and are taken to the current page. JohnInDC (talk) 01:11, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

Also it probably would have been better to raise the matter here before moving, what, two or three dozen pages unilaterally. JohnInDC (talk) 01:42, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

I first noticed them moving all of the pre-2017 articles today, which prompted me to write this section. I noticed one page 2011 Louisiana Ragin' Cajuns football team at 1am this morning had been edited with their updates, which I reverted and Pncomeaux began to revert my edits. So instead of starting an edit war with them, I brought it here so we could get a consensus. Corky 01:54, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

Yes, thanks for that. I hope you didn't think my comment was directed at you! JohnInDC (talk) 02:36, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

Old name should stay with old articles. We have dozens of examples where common names change, and the established way of dealing with this is to use the common name at that time. Concur that anything from 2017 forward should be changed to "Louisiana" while everything prior should remain unchanged. Billcasey905 (talk) 02:03, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

Another recent move request, at the professional level, is more obvious here. The move of Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim to Los Angeles Angels was accompanied by the move of individual season articles at my request, but in that case I was able to argue that the shorter name was the common name from the start. As for ULL, the common name for the majority of the 21st century is unambiguously Louisiana-Lafayette, not Louisiana, so this argument would not apply and the season articles should remain at the longer name.  ONR  (talk)  02:18, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

Oh, for Pete's sake! Can we just go ahead and block this sock farm already? But, seriously, we do not retroactively apply current names of teams or institutions to historical articles. That's why articles like 1968 Stanford Indians football team or 1965 Howard Bulldogs football team exist. This is Wikipedia 101, people. Or, just plain common sense, which, it seams, is an increasingly rare commodity these days. If any historical sub-articles have been moved here, it needs to be reverted, ASAP. Ejgreen77 (talk) 04:23, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

Sock farm?  ONR  (talk)  05:57, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

It would be a nice gesture for Pncomeaux to go back and fix the mess he's made, sparing other editors the troublesome task. JohnInDC (talk) 13:47, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

Yes, but some may not be able to be moved back due to multiple moves... I'm just assuming here, that's what happened with some of the sub-articles. I plan to go back through and move the effected articles back to tomorrow or Tuesday. Corky 15:12, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

• Update I believe I have reverted all 68 moves per this dicussion. If you catch one that I have missed, either move it or let me know. Thanks, Corky 21:23, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

@Corkythehornetfan: I agree with your reverts, I knew this was going to happen eventually, but am shocked that he would have taken the initiative this early. I knew we should have established that only 2017 and later articles should say Louisiana and pre 2017 should remain ULa-La (and NE or SW whatever it was) Louisiana. Also, @Old Naval Rooftops: EJ seems to believe that a sock puppet investigation of some of the "editor(s)" is in order because of their sole focus on this site is to change the program's name to their preferred spelling and also that they come out of the woodwork to only support this page move such as Pcn, and Airbill. I do believe that there is some merit to the idea but I am not going as far as him.UCO2009bluejay (talk) 19:43, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

Also according to airbill's talk page he said he spoke with a admin about a page move request. Where? or what account?--UCO2009bluejay (talk) 19:46, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

@UCO2009bluejay: Airbill hasn't talked to an admin. He emailed me in which I told him to start a RM. I've also opened a SPI where the check user has been performed with the result of Pncomeaux and Airbill not related. I'm waiting to here from a closing administrator. Corky 20:10, 2 January 2018 (UTC)