Talk:Louisiana French

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Immediate attention?

Well, without further explanation I don't understand why this article should need immediate attention. Granted, many things could be structured differently or worded better, but you get a certain idea about the social status on French in Louisiana. The language used in the article is not grossly unencyclopedic. As it is a dialect article, bias towards sociolinguistics is justified - a language article with this bias I would have rated as start class. The article is basically well-sourced. Given all this, I think that it is necessary to detail why this article might be considered grossly flawed. G Purevdorj (talk) 10:56, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

I am inclined to also doubt the "immediate attention" banner's appropriateness. I have read this article several times and do not object to its tone and it seems to be well referenced. Changes that I think we should make (but which I do not think are required urgently) might include:

1. Add content. We especially should have a section on the history of this language, possibly by means of blatantly plagiarizing other Louisiana pages that talk about the history of LA French.
2. Break out the paragraphs related to education and put them under a new section named "Education".
3. Create a section named "Use" to describe contexts in which this language is used in daily life.
4. Move French language masses in Louisiana under "Use". Rename to Religion and then add a thin layer of text to explain that the list is of French language mass services.
5. Rename the section on infrastructure and move it to be under my hypothetical "Use" section. We can deconstruct that section if necessary.
6. Music and Healing don't belong under "Language" as they are not inherent characteristics of the language. I would suggest that Healing be moved to "Use" and Music might better belong under a new (and mostly unwritten) section on culture.
7. "Culture" is a good place for the section on Media and the section on events.

So the table of contents would be similar to the following:

 Contents
   1 History
   2 Status and Use
       2.1 Current status of the language (new content w # of speakers, etc)
       2.2 Religion (was French language masses in Louisiana)
       2.3 Healing traditions and practices    
       2.4 Tourism
   3 Education
       3.1 French-language Public School Curriculum (French Immersion)
       3.2 CODOFIL Consortium of Louisiana Universities and Colleges
           3.2.1 Member institutions 
   4 Culture
      4.1 Music
      4.2 Recurring French language festivities/events
      4.3 French Language Media in Louisiana
      4.3.1 Radio stations
      4.3.2 Periodicals, newspapers, and publications
      4.3.3 Cable networks
   5 Language
       5.1 Grammar and Syntax
       5.2 Vocabulary
       5.3 Place Names
       5.4 Contractions
       5.5 Creole language influences
       5.6 Dialects
            5.6.1 Taxonomy
            5.6.2 Formal French
            5.6.3 Informal French
            5.6.4 Bayou Lafourche French
   6 See Also
   7 References
   8 Further reading

So that is my strawman proposal for reorganization the content. I am soliciting feedback and suggestions as I don't think this is polished enough yet to execute. In particular, I am not particularly happy with all of the section headings ("Use"?).

The letter O following an É

In the article, we write:

Likewise the letter O following an É frequently disappears in spoken informal LF all together (Léonide -> Lonide, Cléophas -> Clophas).

This is self-contradicting because the text says that the "O" is omitted but the examples show the é being omitted. Does anybody watching this page know which is correct?

Thanks, Dave (djkernen)|Talk to me|Please help! 14:26, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

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Who decided "Louisiana French" is the catch-all name?

I'm a linguist and I'm from Louisiana and live in Louisiana. This however is the first time I've seen the term "Louisiana French" used to refer to the sum of varieties of French spoken in Louisiana. This seems a mistaken oversimplification and has some problems.

First of all, in Louisiana the term "Louisiana French" is used not to refer to all the types of French in Louisiana (which if anything would be described as "French in Louisiana") but rather to a specific ethno-cultural group that is separate from the Cajuns, the Plantation French, the New Orleans-centric French, and the various smaller coastal groups that fall into none of these others. Those who refer to themselves as "Louisiana French" are descendants of "official" settlers from France including many soldiers given land in lieu of pensions. They are a separate group from the refugees now known as Cajuns and from most of the French around New Orleans (most of whom were forced migrants who accepted expatriation to Louisiana over prison in France) and the Southeast Louisiana plantation classes (most of whom were not actually French but who through later intermarriages today have French surnames). The majority of Louisiana French settled in the area centered around Alexandria with fewer settlers in Rapides & Natchitoches parishes and the majority forming the bulk of inhabitants in what are today Avoyelles & Pointe Coupee parishes but with smaller Louisiana French communities scattered throughout the state with most today assumed to be Cajuns. This group has a common overall "French" culture that is shared with most other Louisiana groups. However, they exhibit culinary, linguistic, genealogical, and other cultural attributes unique to the Louisiana French group that are distinct and separate from those of Cajuns, Plantation French, and other franco and non-franco groups in the state. This group self-identifies themselves as "Louisiana French" and application of the term in linguistic usage would refer to the particular dialects of these groups who identify themselves as such.

From a linguistic standpoint, it should also be pointed out that Quebecois, Cajun French, and Haitian together represent the largest group of speakers of a variety of French derived from Provençal and much older than "Parisian French" that is the root of most modern French speakers today with the modern derivative of these original root spoken only as a secondary dialect among a small group along the southern coast today in France itself. "Louisiana French" although closer to these varieties than it is to modern Parisian French, is not part of this family. Neither are some of the other varieties of French spoken in Louisiana.

Attempting to apply a Geographically defined moniker for all of the varieties of French in Louisiana as "Louisiana French" makes no more sense than calling all those in France today "French French". This article should be changed to reflect this.Drew.ward (talk) 05:09, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Interesting observations. I must correct you on your third paragraph though: none of the dialects of French in the Americas are derived from Provençal. Provençal is a form of Occitan, a separate Romance language entirely; it bears no resemblance to any French dialect whatsoever. Quebec/Cajun/Haitian French are all derived from various forms of the langue d'oïl, the dialect family to which standard French also belongs. Funnyhat (talk) 05:29, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Confusing sentence

Regarding this sentence:

Likewise the letter O following an É frequently disappears in spoken informal LF all together (Léonide -> Lonide, Cléophas -> Clophas).

The text says that the O is omitted but the examples all show the é being omitted. Which is it? (If the examples are correct then the text should read "...the letter É frequently disappears when followed by the letter O in spoken informal LF.") Peace, Dusty|💬|You can help! 15:17, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Umbrella term?

In the leading section it says that Louisiana French refers to the French dialects spoken in Louisiana...Colonial French being the most spoken. Well is "Louisiana French" an umbrella term? It is understood that Colonial is most common but what about the other dialects?? Is Cajun French under this umbrella as well. Its a bit painful to read and not get an incling of what these other dialects are. Savvyjack23 (talk) 22:02, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

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Merger proposal

I propose that Cajun French be merged into Louisiana French. I think it is difficult to justify maintaining a standalone article for Cajun French because Cajun French is not the preferred term in current scholarship and usage of this term is inaccurate from a linguistic perspective. Linguists working on French-related varieties in Louisiana almost without exception use the term 'Louisiana French' or 'Louisiana Regional French' to refer to this variety.. This is for two main reasons:

1. Cajun French is primarily an ethnic and political label, not a linguistic one. Further, this term is exclusive of the substantial number of francophone Louisanians who do not identify as Cajun but instead as e.g. Louisiana Creole or Native American.
2. A historically and linguistically accurate account of Cajun French needs to be placed within a discussion of dialect levelling in the emergence of Louisiana French, as well as the reality that the Acadian French input contributed relatively little to Louisiana Regional French varieties..

The Louisiana French article can be restructured to include subsections on different varieties of Louisiana French, including Acadian French. This subsection should also include discussion of the 'Cajun French' label. lŋgwstks (talk) 14:51, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

References

Grammar

Despite ample time for Louisiana French to diverge, the basic grammatical core of the language remains similar or the same as Standard French

Bizarre sentence. How many of the world's languages have experienced major grammatical changes in the last two centuries? 2600:1702:3200:E680:25E7:2A11:172:3F5B (talk) 03:57, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Wrong figures

The introduction of the article states the following:

Figures from the United States Census record that roughly 7% of Louisianans over the age of 5 report speaking French or a French-based creole at home. Distribution of these speakers is uneven, however, with the majority residing in the south-central region known as Acadiana. Some of the Acadiana parishes register francophone populations of 10% or more of the total, with a select few (such as Vermilion, Evangeline and St. Martin Parishes) exceeding 15%.

As a reference, a census.gov source from 2007 is cited: Appendix Table A for Figures 5A-5H. Percentage Speaking a Language Other Than English at Home by English-Speaking Ability by State: 2007

Louisiana

Population 5 years and over

                                                                                         3 996 750  (Number)  

Population speaking a language other than English at home

                                                                                           328 041  (Number)
                                                                                                  8.2  (Percent)

Spanish

                                                                                                   0.3  (Column pctage)
                                                                                                   2.9  (Row pctage)

French

                                                                                                   7.0  (Column pctage)
                                                                                                   3.5  (Row pctage)

The column percentage is the cumulative addition of the specific language among the states. The row percentage is the percentage distribution of all the languages within each state.

Specifically in the case of Louisiana, column percentage means that 0.3 percent of the total number of Spanish speakers in the U.S. live in Louisiana. and that 7 percent of the total number of French speakers in the U.S. live in Louisiana.

Row percentage in the case of Louisiana means that 2.9 percent of the population in Louisiana were speaking Spanish at home and that 3.5 percent of the population in Louisiana were speaking French at home.

The combined percentage of Spanish and French speakers amounts to 6.4 percent (thus forming the major part of the 8.2 percent of the population speaking a language other than English at home)

IMO, some editor has confused the Column percentage with the Row percentage resulting in a higher (and wrong) percentage of people speaking French at home (... roughly 7% of Louisianans ...).

The correct percentage of people speaking French at home in Louisiana in 2007, should be around 3.5 percent. 2001:9E8:4628:FF8E:6C0A:F792:364C:83E3 (talk) 19:11, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

The "Contractions" section has an incorrect translation.

In this section there is an example of how Louisiana French avoids certain contractions, to whit:

"the skylight" Louisiana French: "la lumière de le ciel" | Standard French: "la lumière du ciel"

A skylight in France is often called a Velux, a company which makes them (like we might say Kleenex or Q-tip despite the brand). The real problem, though, is that the French word for "skylight" is "lucarne".

Here "la lumière du ciel" means "the light of the sky" oe "the sky's light" which is weird because the word in English is "daylight" or in French "la lumière du jour".

A better example should be chosen because this translation is wrong. I would change it but I'm afraid of making it worse.... 37.168.68.58 (talk) 21:19, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Debatable content

The history section, second sentence of the fourth paragraph, "They were assigned to this area in 1765 by Jean-Jacques Blaise d'Abbadie the French official who was administering Louisiana for the Spanish." The arrival of the group that was led by Joseph Broussard was around late April to May 1765. Lacking sources, a letter, possibly between d'Abbadie and Henri Peyroux de la Coudrenière) or one between Coudrenière and Broussard, there are a couple of problems. 1)- Even if there were such a letter it would seem improbable that the Broussard party would willing go to all the trouble and dangers to arrive in a place waiting on a change of government. 2)- d'Abbadie died February 4, 1765. It is conjecture, without sourcing, to assign this task to d'Abbadie when the new settlers were met by Charles Philippe Aubry who succeeded d'Abbadie. Maybe I missed something somewhere? -- Otr500 (talk) 04:13, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

External links

Some things just grow by nature. The "External links" section, one of the optional appendices, had grown to 18 entries. Three seems to be an acceptable number and of course, everyone has their favorite to add for four links.

The problem is that none is needed for article promotion.

• ELpoints #3) states: Links in the "External links" section should be kept to a minimum. A lack of external links or a small number of external links is not a reason to add external links.
• LINKFARM states: There is nothing wrong with adding one or more useful content-relevant links to the external links section of an article; however, excessive lists can dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Wikipedia. On articles about topics with many fansites, for example, including a link to one major fansite may be appropriate.
• ELMIN: Minimize the number of links. --
• ELCITE: (Not relevant here) Do not use {{cite web}} or other citation templates in the External links section. Citation templates are permitted in the Further reading section.
• WP:ELBURDEN: Disputed links should be excluded by default unless and until there is a consensus to include them.

Some of the current links include ones that are not needed giving no benefit to the article and some that can be included in the article with sources.

Per WP:ELBURDEN I have moved those removed from the article here for any future discussion.

• Creole Poems
• Centenary University Bibliothèque Tintamarre Texts in Louisiana French
• Télé-Louisiane
• The NOUS Foundation
• Le bijou sur le Bayou Teche
• La Base de données lexicographiques de la Louisiane Archived 2007-01-26 at the Wayback Machine
• Cajun language websites
• Terrebonne Parish French Online!
• Cajun French Virtual Table Francaise
• Cajun French Virtual Table Française

-- Otr500 (talk) 20:31, 12 November 2023 (UTC)