Talk:Luby's shooting/Archive 1

Archive 1

Comment

Your POV is showing: "eventually lead to the largely uneffective 1994 "Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act" commonly called the AWB (Assault Weapons Ban)." The correct word should be 'ineffective', but in any event, such a determination is beyond the scope of this article, right?Cpeterkelly 01:22, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Al Gratia?

Why isn't he on the victim list.

Someone added him after you asked on 20 April. Please sign and date your posts using four tildes (~~~~). --CliffC 20:11, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Suzanna Gratia Hupp's firearm not mentioned. Why not?

Suzanna Hupp had a firearm at Luby's the day of the massacre, but she left it in her vehicle due to it being against the law for her to carry it inside ( see: http://www.wmsa.net/gratia-hupp_1992.htm ). This was likely a critical piece of testimony used to change the firearm laws in question, and thus should be mentioned. If no one disagrees, I'll add the reference. If someone disagrees, explain why. WeedWhacker 11:37, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree completely and am surprised if it's not mentioned. --Golbez 11:42, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Added, cited. WeedWhacker 09:48, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but the whole idea that an intelligent response to a gun rampage is to make it easier for everyone to get more guns just leaves me totally incredulous. :-(

Also, why doesn't the article say anything about what the perpetrator's problem was, and why it had been possible for him to have guns? Or are those questions considered irrelevant in the rush to arm everyone to the teeth? --RenniePet (talk) 23:53, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Although talk pages are intended for the discussion of articles and not their subjects, I'll try to answer your questions about Hennard. His problem was that he was what we in the USA call "crazy", and even if he was screaming, foaming-at-the-mouth crazy, such people can't be institutionalized in today's society because it would interfere with their rights. I do not know, and don't care to research, how Hennard got his guns -- crazy people and criminals will always have guns, or get guns. They steal them or buy them from someone else who has stolen them. For this reason some law-abiding, non-crazy citizens carry concealed weapons to protect themselves and their families, and maybe even complete strangers in a cafeteria, against the one in ten thousand chance they will cross paths with a Hennard or a carjacker. I won't debate the subject of right-to-carry or its statistics, but many people in the USA believe in the right to defend themselves, and won't be victims. --CliffC (talk) 01:47, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the non-flaming answer. I obviously disagree regarding the best way to minimize gun violence and maximize wellbeing in a society, but like you say, this isn't the place for that debate. --RenniePet (talk) 11:05, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Where did he get the Glock and Ruger? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.167.58.224 (talk) 19:08, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

As a native of both Killeen and Texas in general, I have one theory as to his guns. Texas gun control laws are surprisingly liberal. Person-to-person (I/E non-dealer) sales of guns are not regulated. They are a strictly cash and carry affair. If he had bough his weapons at say, a gun show or from some kind of private listing, there would be no paper trail. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.242.38.84 (talk) 18:17, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Bill Sponsor Clarification

This article lists Rep. Hupp as the sponsor of the gun law passed in 1995, but according to Hupp's wikipedia article, she wasn't elected to the legislature until 1996. 69.255.82.121 (talk) 19:59, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

She probably testified in favor of the "shall issue" law, then was subsequently elected to public office as a result of her interest in political activism. However, if the dates above are correct, it would be improper to refer to her as "sponsor" of the legislation, at least in the legislative sense of the word. 69.42.7.212 (talk) 02:22, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

"Easily"

I would like to take the word "easily" out of this statement: "The law was signed by then-Governor George W. Bush and became part of a broad movement to allow U.S. citizens to easily obtain permits to carry concealed weapons". The adverb "easily" imparts a subjective tone to an otherwise factual statement. For example, in Texas, passing a background check to purchase a firearm, applying through the state DPS for a CHL application, sitting through 10 hours of instruction on self defense law and de-escalation, passing a firearm proficiency exam and paying the $170.00 application fee is not "easy". —Preceding unsigned comment added by SalsaNChips (talk • contribs) 19:12, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Removing the "easily" sounds reasonable to me. --CliffC (talk) 20:12, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Probably adding the word "more" in front of "easily" would have been just as acceptable, since it would have created a more-or-less objective comparison between two laws. 69.42.7.212 (talk) 02:24, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Memory

Not that it's that important, but I served at Ft. Hood (in Killeen) until August 1990. I'd been out of the Army for about 14 months when this happened. I used to eat there occasionally just before church....on Wednesdays (this happened early in the day on a Wednesday). Sad, sad event. Buddpaul (talk) 22:40, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

George Jo Hennard profile summary

Someone should add a short profile similar to the one found on San Ysidro McDonald's massacre. I do not have enough info to add it myself, but there should be more information on him. Thanks Who (talk) 23:28, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

George Pierre Hennard - Jo Jo

Although this is going to probably incur controversy because all of the news articles refer to him and "George Jo Hennard", his middle name is actually Pierre. According to the Texas Death Index 1964-1998 the only person who died on that date with the name George Hennard, was George Pierre Hennard. Furthermore, I provided a citation reference to and article showing that in 1968 an 11 year old boy named George Pierre Hennard, nickname of Jo Jo, was lost for four days, which matches the age he would have been. In an article in the Sunday April 6, 2003 — THE LETHBRIDGE HERALD, page A9, it also discusses his father, an Army doctor, George M. Hennard, was transferred from New Mexico to Texas, further showing the connection. Although his father was also named George, he gave several interviews after Oct 16th, which shows he isn't the one listed on the Death Index. It's actually kind of sad that 90% of the news articles have it wrong. You can also find the correct name on the List of Mass Murders. Who (talk) 05:40, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

I think there will, or at least should be no controversy regarding his middle name. The Pierre is sourced well enough. The article about him going missing is, btw, only readable for subscribers of newspaperarchives.com, so the provided link will likely be useless for most people. Nonetheless, it's an interesting little detail. (Lord Gøn (talk) 16:59, 18 February 2011 (UTC))

Well, after delving a bit deeper into the matter I found this article where you can read the following:

Oddly, he changed his name in recent years from Georges Pierre Hennard to George Jo Hennard. (Lord Gøn (talk) 17:17, 18 February 2011 (UTC))

Yea, I hate using paid links, but could not find the articles elsewhere, luckily enough paid links can still be used with citations, it's bout the same as having to buy the book. Great find on name change article, although, it doesn't say whether or not he just started using it, or changed it legally. So it seems it's just better as an aka. Who (talk) 22:31, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Punctuation error, and possible category error

Punctuation needs to be corrected here (commas are a mess) -- at 1705 East Central Texas Expressway in Killeen, yelled "This is what Bell has done to me!", then opened fire on its patrons and staff with a Glock 17...

Should have a comma after yelled, and there should be NO comma after the ...me!"

FOR DISCUSSION: This page is listed on the "list of serial killer by number of victims" page as a SPREE killer. HOWEVER, it appears this was a MASS murder, and therefore should not be on that list at all.

"shooting" or "massacre" in title

I'm not trying to stir up controversy, but the trend with articles of this type has been leaning towards the use of the term "shooting" versus "massacre": 2013 Santa Monica shooting, Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting, 2012 Aurora shooting, etc. There are exceptions such as Virginia Tech massacre, but given the creations dates it would seem that the term "massacre" was used because of this article and/or the San Ysidro McDonald's massacre article. There is considerable discussion about the use of the term on the Virginia Tech article's Talk page.

Obviously it would still be in the article body and if the article were moved to Luby's shooting a redirect would be created and anyone using the term would still find the article.

I am in no way trying to change the impact or impression or any other interpretation of the event, this is simply for consistency sake with similar articles. Does anyone object to this move? --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 20:03, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

 Done After posting this about a month ago and with no objections, I have made the move of the article to Luby's shooting for the sake of clarity and consistency with other similar articles. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) 17:35, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Not to re-start something that seems to be settled (if only by apathy, since not everybody reads the article or the discussion page with any frequency), but in all the time since this event occurred (I was in high school) I have never, ever seen it referred to as anything but the Luby's Massacre. Shooting seems to understate the gravity of the event, especially as "shooting" implies a singular victim (compare "shootings"). That other titles have adopted this convention from the beginning doesn't imply that this one should be changed from its historical name to conform with them. 75.75.166.135 (talk) 21:14, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Listing/Naming the wounded

Listing/Naming the survivors seems a bit much. I've scanned some other shooting articles and this is unusual. I am saving the info here for discussion, if necessary. Perhaps the sources may be useful for other info, though one (from the Wellington Leader) is incomplete and three others are by subscription only (from the Austin American-Statesman). Lightbreather (talk) 23:36, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Preserved content

Among those wounded were:

• Louie Caraballo, hit by Hennard's truck and shot in the back
• Judy Ernst, shot in the arm
• Steven Ernst, 49, shot in the stomach
• JoAnn Heckathorn, 50, shot in the hip
• Hazel Holley, 70, arm fracture
• Odene Huron, 74, glass injury
• Kirby Lack, shot in the back

• Bernadette Leasure, shot in the buttocks
• Betty May, glass injury
• Shannon McMullen, shot in the leg
• Barbara Nite, shot in the foot
• Charlene Smith, shot in the foot
• John Swift, shot in the foot
• Thomas Vaughn, glass injuries

Preserved sources

It has a video that doesn't load, and the text doesn't adding anything to the article, but I'm preserving it here in case someone else finds it useful.

• "Luby's Massacre Remains Among Nation's Worst Mass Shootings". Waco, Texas: KWTX-TV News. April 16, 2007. Updated October 14, 2011.

There are some archived versions at archive.org/web, but none of them work any better than the original. Lightbreather (talk) 23:56, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

This, about one of the victims, is a chiropractic newsletter from a publisher of "alternative health and wellness content":

• Kelly, Steve (December 6, 1991). "Texas Chiropractor -- One of 24 Slain in Tragedy". Dynamic Chiropractic. MPA Media. Retrieved December 2, 2006.

--Lightbreather (talk) 17:38, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

In use

A lot of the details in this article have no source. I am going to put an "in-use" tag on this for about 24 hours and rewrite a lot of it using details given in the sources. If someone wants to add details when I'm done, fine, but please provide sources if you do. Please do not simply revert to this frequently unsourced version. Thanks. Lightbreather (talk) 23:47, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Backwardscopy

Parts of this article appear to be unsourced, but I stumbled upon a "source" today that matches quite a bit of the version that was here before I started adding improvements. The "source" is:

• Walsh, Robert (April 30, 2015). "The Luby's Cafeteria Massacre of 1991". Crime Magazine.

However, upon further investigation, some of the text in question in this article pre-dates the "source" date, so for now I am assuming that what we have is a case of backwardscopy.

The results from the Duplication Detector: [1].

I will take some more time to look the history over further and report. Whatever the outcome, the unsourced material needs to be properly sourced or removed. Lightbreather (talk) 16:51, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

On second thought, it's quite hard to tell. This edit - [2] - on June 21, 2014, has the edit summary of "Adding/improving reference(s)" when in fact NO reference was added, and one was removed. The source that was removed:

• Blanco, Juan Ignacio (ed.). "George Jo Hennard". Murderpedia.org.

is poor quality, but removing it without at least preserving it on the talk page was a bad idea, as it probably pinpoints some of the (uncited) sources used in this article. The first part of the source is a copy of the Wikipedia article, followed by copies (transcriptions?) of more than a dozen other sources - from The Boston Globe to The Wacky World of Murder - that could be useful in finding the originals (no links are given) and rewriting this mess. Lightbreather (talk) 17:15, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

"Incident" v "massacre"

Since I am on the cusp of retiring, I'm not going to fight it, but I think to call a massacre an "incident" is not NPOV.[3] Shooting and killing 23 people, and wounding 28 others is more than an "incident," and to call it an incident is NOT NPOV.

From Merriam-Webster:

• incident - an unexpected and usually unpleasant thing that happens
• massacre - the violent killing of many people

When G.W. Bush's VP Dick Cheney shot a hunting companion, that was an incident. When Mark Chapman shot John Lennon, that was a shooting. What Hennard committed was a massacre. One might also say a mass shooting, but not just "a shooting." Calling this and other massacres shootings is like calling Hitler a tyrant; it downplays the truth of the matter. Lightbreather (talk) 18:59, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Naming mass shooters

I will never understand why mass shooters identities are being released. There is more info on the shooter than any of the victims. He does not deserve to even be acknowledged. This creates a situation that some crazy people will try to copy. It is disturbing that his name appears all over the wiki page and the victims are only listed once in a list. Should we not be trying to stop this from happening again? Nobody cares why a crazy person goes on a rampage. Whatever the reason it does not change the fact that people are dead. I am so glad that I have the right to bear arms and can carry with license in many businesses now. This will not happen to me or my family!!

May want to consider editing the article and providing more info on the victims and less on any idiot that kills people. I think this article should be revised. I am sure it is disturbing to see "Jo Jo" pictures to survivors, victims families and law officials.

Adding a map of the location

Figured i'd add a map of where the shooting took place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Graylandertagger (talk • contribs) 00:16, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

"Gun-free zone" inclusion

A particular user seems to be pushing for the inclusion of a link to a dubious source that the shooting occurred in a "gun-free zone" just like the Sandy Hook, VT shootings, and the Pulse/Orlando shooting and that, somehow, that made it possible? I'm not sure I follow the logic train on this one. This particular information is not included in any of pages for these particular events and the topic itself is only mentioned on the VT page (as of a quick search today). I've invited the editor to respond the talk page. 67.149.186.215 (talk) 17:12, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

Type of gun

The type of gun used was recently removed from the Perpetrator section. I reverted the removal because the gun type adds clarity to the section. Please discuss any objections here. –dlthewave ☎ 20:42, 1 April 2018 (UTC)