Talk:Luca Attanasio

Wording - Assassination?

Should the death section be renamed to assassination? - Article started for the assassination: Assassination of Luca Attanasio

• Rename to assassination as Luca Attanasio was an ambassador, so he had a high public image/standard in politics. Elijahandskip (talk) 15:45, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
• New article was a word-for-word duplication of the Death section. No need for redundancy like that on Wikipedia. Donaldd23 (talk) 16:25, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

• We don't need two articles- especially when one is an unattributed copy of the death section of this one. WP:CONTENTFORK. Joseph2302 (talk) 16:51, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

• "Assassination" comes down to whether or not he was targeted due to his notability. If this can be verified, I feel it is the correct term. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 17:08, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

If it's not an "assassination", it's at least a "murder" over a "death". AllegedlyHuman (talk) 17:31, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

• Assassination doesn't sound right to me, it implies premeditated intent whereas reports suggest it was a botched kidnapping. I think killing/murder are the correct terms. Jr8825 • Talk 18:32, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

What should the name be instead of assassination? Murder of Luca Attanasio, Death of Luca Attanasio, Attempted Kidnapping of Luca Attanasio? Elijahandskip (talk) 14:04, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

I would support "Murder" or "Killing". Even if it was an attempted kidnapping, it became a murder – the greatest of all crimes. That takes precedent. However, I'm not seeing many reliable sources refer to this as an "assassination", though I acknowledge that I'm limited to mostly English-language sources here, and the terminology may change as the situation evolves. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 14:13, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

It's also important to note that other people were killed as well. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 19:13, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

• Super duper strong support: Currently makes it look like he just tripped over and broke his skull and died. Assassination is what happened. Prins van Oranje 19:53, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Is "murder" or "killing" not also what happened? And more broadly, wasn't this also an "ambush" or attack"? AllegedlyHuman (talk) 02:57, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Yes, in fact probably more accurate than assassination. But my point was strictly that the word death should be avoided. Prins van Oranje 09:42, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose the term "assassination". This is really a no-brainer. Of the six English-language sources, not one of them use the word. One of the sources use the word "murder" in their own voice in the article, two more when quoting witnesses. As always, Wikipedia goes with the sources, so we use "death" and "killing", possibly "murder" if attributed, but not "assassination". --T*U (talk) 10:26, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
• Comment there is an Italian source listed in the assassination article that mentions that Luca was the target. That would make it assassination over murder as he was an ambassador. Elijahandskip (talk) 12:22, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

And why should this one source have priority over all others? I note that even that source does not state that he was the target, only that it seems he was. And even if he actually was the target (which of course is highly probable), even that source does not even indicate that killing him was the main goal. It may just as well have been a bungled kidnap attempt, like some other sources suggest. Combining the two facts "He was killed" and "He was the target" into "He was assassinated" when no source actually says so, is a great example of WP:SYNTH, which is not acccepted in Wikipedia. Could we please stick to Wiki rules here? --T*U (talk) 14:56, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Also, correct me if I'm wrong as I do not speak Italian, but the word "assassinio" also translates to "murder" or "killing"–in fact, Google Translate shows "murder" as the first translation, and Wiktionary's definition of assassinio says the same. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 15:54, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

• I'd like to note that I now strongly oppose the term assassination per this source: "What we know for certain is that it was not an execution. It was a gun fight, the ambassador and the carabiniere were hit by two bullets each." This should be changed ASAP. In light of this I would also support "killing" over "murder", though I would not support simply "death" for the reasons others have mentioned. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 01:33, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Assassination of Luca Attanasio into Luca Attanasio

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

I see no consensus to merge here. Four people commented in support of the merge, and six commented in opposition to the merge. The main points raised by those supporting the merge include concerns about redundant content forking, the use of "Assassination" in the title of the article on the event, and the underdeveloped content of the main article on Luca Attanasio. The main points raised by those in opposition to the merge include the notability of the event that lead to Attanasio's death, concerns that information about the event will overwhelm the short article on his life, an argument that amounted to other stuff exists, and the fact that Attanasio was not the only one killed in the event. I assign very little weight to the other stuff exists argument. Although I see the point being made about redundant content forking, I am persuaded by those opposing that merging the article on the event would create an undue weight problem, and that the article on the event is an appropriate spinoff. The title of the article on the event is being discussed in the section above, and I urge those who supported merger based on "assassination" being inappropriate to engage in that discussion if they haven't already. ~ ONUnicorn^{(Talk|Contribs)}problem solving 17:45, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

---

The circumstances surrounding Attanasio's death are adequately covered at Luca Attanasio. That article is under 3k of text, including the information on his death, and so a separate article about his death is not wanted. As an ambassador, Attanasio is likely notable notwithstanding his death, so Luca Attanasio should remain and Assassination of Luca Attanasio should be merged back in. Especially as assassination is not an agreed terminology, as per ongoing discussion at Talk:Luca Attanasio#Wording - Assassination? Joseph2302 (talk) 19:37, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

*Wait until ITN nomination is closed. Elijahandskip (talk) 19:48, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

I think it depends on what the Italian response is to the attack. Certainly this wasn't a state-sponsored attack, but if it leads to any substantial Italian diplomatic or military response, that would make it independently notable in my view. However, Wikipedia is not CNN. It is not our responsibility to report breaking news. Bkissin (talk) 19:48, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Elijahandskip There is no policy for us to wait until an ITN closes. And there was no consensus to create a new article, or to use the word "assassination" (see above talk discussion), so who here is really messing up the policies? Joseph2302 (talk) 20:49, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

I technically did mess up policies, but it does appear that a consensus is brewing on the ITN nomination for the recent death category. I feel it to be logical to wait for any proposed merges, deletions, or redirect discussion to wait until that ITN discussion is done. Elijahandskip (talk) 21:25, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Bkissin, more has since been added to that article about the Italian government's response, as well as other international responses. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 18:29, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

• Changed from wait to Oppose as the event is notable enough for a separate article, especially as investigations are underway. Elijahandskip (talk) 14:02, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
• Support this is a duplication of what is already in the person's page. Having a copy is against guidelines, regardless of the ITN nomination (why it was nominated I will never know since it is a copy of a subsection in the person's article...just nominate the person's article. Donaldd23 (talk) 19:57, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose The event is notable enough on its own, and it's not crystal-balling to say that the situation will obviously develop and more information will be revealed (i.e. who? why? how? etc.) Luca Attanasio has enough information on his career to not be a case of WP:BLP1E; as more reactions and such to his death come in, they can be added on the page about the assassination as opposed to his BLP, where they would be tangential. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 23:57, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose Doing a search of "Assassinations of", you'll find plenty of articles in the ~2000 word range. EH86055 (talk) 06:55, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

  Citing other things that are done the wrong way is not a rationale. --Jayron32 15:49, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

  Perhaps, then, you could conclude that they might not be done the wrong way; what makes you believe they are? EH86055 (talk) 00:31, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

• Support It's doubtful there will ever be enough info on either the man or his death to justify two separate articles. 216.158.244.248 (talk) 17:30, 23 February 2021 (UTC) 17:30, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose I believe that the event is notable enough to warrant its own article. I understand the article is small, but that doesn't warrant its removal; it simply means the article is new, as Mr. Attanasio only died yesterday, surely this is to be expected. R. J. Dockery (talk) 18:32, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
• Super strong oppose This event is clearly notable enough to have its own wikipedia article. Prins van Oranje 19:52, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
• Merge and redirect for the time being. There is no need for a separate article as long as all the content already is included in the biography article, see WP:CONTENTFORK. If the main article swells too much, this can be forked out at a later stage. As it is now, people reading the article about Attanasio and then clicking on the "Main article: Assassinaton..." link to learn more, will only feel snubbed.

On another note, the title of the fork article is invalid. Not one of the English-language sources call this assassination, and the word is not even used in the article expect in the title, the infobox and two categories. The current title is clearly sensationalist. If the article is kept, it will have to be renamed "Death of L.A.", "Killing of L.A." or similar, in line with the sources. --T*U (talk) 10:45, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

@TU-nor: none of the English sources say it was assassination, however, an Italian source says he was the target (See the assassination page). Discussion is above whether or not we are going to go with the English sources or the Italian source for an Italian ambassador. Elijahandskip (talk) 12:25, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

What matters is what the balance of sources say (the quantity of quality RS); one source doesn't outweigh the others. The vast majority of reliable news sources use terms such as 'killed' etc. Regarding the Italian source, see WP:RSUE (English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones when available and of equal quality and relevance). Jr8825 • Talk 16:27, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose because the triple murder is notable enough for its own article. Jim Michael (talk) 18:55, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
• Merge and redirect. The parent article is not overwhelmed by the text here, there is no real need for a split in the first place. The parent article can cover this sufficiently. --Jayron32 15:49, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

@Jayron32: forgive me for the ping, but I want to ask a question to help clarify your comment. Do you mean the parent article cover all parts of the attack/assassination or just the small part of his death? The new article has a section developing over responses since a U.N. investigation has been started. Wanting to clarify if you meant adding the investigation in as well to the parent article. Elijahandskip (talk) 16:16, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

I mean that the parent article can cover it without becoming too long. --Jayron32 16:33, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Which no consensus developing after a 4 day discussion, should we start an RFC to get other editor opinions or call the discussion after the week? Elijahandskip (talk) 13:15, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

• Not yet, merge discussions should last at least a week, as per guidance at WP:MERGECLOSE. And as we're discussing a merge, the merge request is the correct procedure, an RFC would just duplicate this discussion. Joseph2302 (talk) 13:44, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

• Can we close this on “no consensus”. The article has an extra murder involved =. Possible cover-up. Elijahandskip (talk) 14:25, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Trevi conglomerate

• Death of the Italian ambassador in the DRC: a political assassination?
• https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trevi_Group
• https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trevi_(azienda) --91.54.10.7 (talk) 17:10, 26 June 2022 (UTC)