Talk:Luger pistol

Collectible

The section on Lugers being collectible items states... "All Luger pistols have collector value with some models, such as the "American Eagle" (having the eagle stamp over the chamber), being more desirable." I'm no collector, but why exactly is this more desirable? Is this a valid statement and not just a replica producer putting their brand name on he net? I might be missing the point, but I'd have thought an original would be more desirable than an American produced replica with incorrect markings. Anyone got any input on this? --79.72.166.168 23:08, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

• I seem to remember that the Lugers with the American Eagle stamp over the chamber were imported by the licensed US importer (Stoger Arms?) into the US in the period before WW 2. As this was the Depression period in the US as well as in the rest of the industrial world, not many were imported. There may be fake "American Eagle" Lugers around and possibly that's what user 79.72.166.168 is refering to. --TGC55 21:10, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

DWM supplied pistols to the US military trials at the beginning of the 20th Century with the eagle over the chamber. These trials pistols, especially the .45 version, are origingal, especially rare and sought after. The US importer Stoeger also put them on some models, but that is not what is referred to.ChrisPer (talk) 02:28, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Effective Range?

What is the effective range for the Luger? --Ambassador Weyoun 03:13, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

About 30 yards according to this page. Thernlund ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 06:13, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

NONSENCE

A hangun's range largely depends on the shooter's ability to use a 'Short-Range-Intended Weapon' at greater distances. Look at wat Ed McGivern did in the 30's with Smith&Wesson revolvers at distances upto 600 yards. Although by far not being as good as Ed McGivern, I regularly demonstrated this on the shooting-range by placing all (Or most of) my shots (Out of a S&W mod. 39 semi-auto 9mm. pistol) in a target about as big as a man's chest at a distance of 200 metres. Ed Mc.Givern did this (Crouched and leaning against a tree) at 600 yards with a 357 magnum S&W! To do this kind of shooting a lot of things have to be taken into account (Like elevation) but the biggest problem is that, outdoors, the slower handgun-bullets (Typically MACH 1 when leaving the muzzle) may undergo a lot of drift caused by wind.81.245.162.57 19:38, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok. -Thernlund ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 19:58, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Effective range usually takes into account terminal, not just external ballistics. You maybe able to hit a target at 600yds with a pistol but it's doubtfull wether any serious wounding can be caused. Veritas Panther 03:57, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

200 Meters as effective range for a combat pistol? NONSENSE!! Effective range ALWAYS takes into account the limits of the cartridge in terms of both accuracy and wounding potential under combat conditions. It's RIDICULOUS as well as grossly misleading to cite the effective range of a .45 Colt or 9mm Luger pistol at 200 meters used by an expert pistol shot from a solid rest in still air at a paper target that is not shooting back, or fired at 600 yards when held at a 45-degree angle and fired in still air against a 2-foot stationary target, then counting a majority of hits as proof of the effective range!! Maximum range perhaps - which is still a meaningless number, as the pistol is was never designed for that type of use. German authorities IN PARTICULAR would never consider maximum range as a useful figure, being mostly concerned with combat effectiveness. Effective range of the 9mm P08 in an average soldier's hands under combat conditions when fired off-hand at a stationary target was about 50 meters. Sources: ; - Dellant Dellant 10 December 2017 (UTC)

---

Wikipedia's article about the 9x19mm Parabellum reveals nothing about it's maximum range, but I'd say it's very far as long as you're accurate enough. The problem is that at longer range, it's power is so low you'd need to be even more accurate. So at 600 yards you'd need to hit your target in the eye or in the neck to inflict lethal damage, as opposed to closer ranges where a shot in the chest could kill. At what range does the 9x19mm Parabellum round go subsonic? Generally bullet accuracy is diminished after it slows down past the sound barrier, since it's less stable. This could be helpful in calculating the maximum range of the P'08. | Phillip Bromley (Talk) 22:11, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

My understanding of the term "effective range" is that different militaries actually have technical definitions of what it consists of. Maybe the best thing to do is to use those definitions as a base for statements about effective range in articles?--Sus scrofa (talk) 11:42, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

The term is vague and will vary WILDLY from one source to another. There is no use for such a term as, shot to shot, range will differ. Shooter to shooter, firearm to firearm, weather, lighting conditions, smoke, etc. "Effective Range" is useful only as a training tool within an organization and any use of such numbers in encyclopedic articles will ALWAYS be specious. --Nukes4Tots (talk) 02:46, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, I suppose then that the Luger P08 pistol's maximum range is more reliant upon the shooter than the gun itself. So I'd suggest that either the effective range should be omitted or the maximum terminal range of the 9x19mm round it fires should be listed instead. | Phillip Bromley (Talk) 00:25, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Despite what I want, the consensus is to include range when it can be reliably referenced by a principle user. For instance, German Army manual, US Army technical evaluation, maximum sight markings, etc. It must be referenced in some way. --Nukes4Tots (talk) 07:07, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

References

Too many pictures?

Currently there are seven pictures on this article one right after the other. This seems like too many considering that the article itself is fairly small. BigSciZot 19:15, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I removed of the redundant pics while doing other edits. Thernlund 21:58, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Questions

What is the difference between a Luger and a Ruger. Is Luger the type of gun, while Ruger is a brand?

You can ever go as far as to say they're two different "brands" that just share an inconsequential similarity in their spelling. Veritas Panther 03:12, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Interestingly some Rugers look a bit like Lugers.--Kalmia 11:51, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Ruger is a brand name , Luger is a model name and in fact made by different manufacturers like Mauser and Krieghoff. Modern manufacturers are Stoeger and indeed Ruger. The Luger was named P08 (Pistole 08) in the german army and P06 in the swiss army. Still the most used name for this kind/model/type of handgun is "Luger". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.84.171.1 (talk) 11:05, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Georg Luger, an Austrian born in 1849, worked for DWM and made improvements to the older Borchardt pistol that came to informally bear his name. Bill Ruger, an American born in 1916, formed Sturm, Ruger & Company, an American gun manufacturing firm that is informally known as Ruger. No direct relationship at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.162.249.249 (talk) 03:57, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Toggle lock

'Toggle lock' links to 'firearm actions', which contains no mention of toggle lock. Someone please edit it to include it. -Toptomcat 14:43, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I wonder if it's worth mentioning the Maxim-type guns regarding its toggle lock, since the Luger's action is very much like an "open-topped Vickers". Just a thought, anyway...--194.247.53.233 17:11, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Styre rimfire scout RFR is described as using a "toggle lock" on numerous gun advertising sites - it's action is turned 90° & is a straight pull bolt action. Sure not automatic but may be a good reference Do.nosword (talk) 07:30, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Article title

The title of this article should be Parabellum (pistol) or something similar, since that is the proper name of the gun. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.249.79.230 (talk) 20:44, 20 April 2006‎ (UTC)

It should not. The ammunition for the 9mm version of the Luger is called 9mm ParaBellum, 9mm Para, 9x19, 9mm or 9mm Luger. ParaBellum comes from : Si vis pacem, para bellum, which means those whos seek peace, prepare for war. This is not the only cartridge it was chambered for, there are also lugers chambered in .30 Luger, 7.65mm Parabellum also referred to by some as 7,65 swiss or 7,65 siwss ordnance.

The proper name is "Luger Pistol" and not "Luger P08 pistol" hence, the Luger was called P08 (Pistole 08) in the german army but p06 in the swiss army. The name Luger is an overall name and P08 is not.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.84.171.1 (talk) 11:19, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

"Luger" is only a US nickname and the name of the designer. But PO8 is in fact only the name of the pistol in the German Army. --Martin (talk) 19:34, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

The present article should be renamed as "Parabellum pistol". The real name whith what the pistol was patented by DWM is "Parabellum". Patent was registered when DWM was formed in 1897 when the company Deutsche Metallpatronenfabrik was fusioned with the Ludwig Loewe & Co. The denomination of "Luger" was introduced later by his dealer in the USA Hans Tauscher refering to the name of his designer Georg Luger. P08 is only the name of the 1908 9mm. model. --Aofvilla (talk) 18:42, 25 September 2012 (UTC) Buenos Aires, Argentina

Aofvilla is right! After the prototype stage the pistol hit the civil market under the name Parabellum in 1900 and was adopdet into military use first with the swiss in 1901 in the same form as the this civil model, the swiss called it "Pistole 1900". The german navy then had it´s "Pistole 04" and finally the german army the "Pistole 08". The Parabellum name also showed up in Georg Lugers Patent. The name Luger was first applied way after 1918 and was never offically used. Sure it was Georg Luger who invented the gun (or improved it from the Borchardt), but it was also him who gave it the name Parabellum. The pistol may be widely recognized as a "Luger" or "08", but that are inoffical terms. And the correct term "Parabellum" is at least as wide recognized.

The cartridges 7,65mm Parabellum (7,65x21) and 9mm Parabellum (9x19) got the Parabellum name because it´s the name of the gun in which they first appeared, and not the other way round!

This is all written mostly correct in the article, still the article title is incorret! Truedings (talk) 21:06, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Circle thing on top

This is probably a stupid question, but what is the function of the distinctive circular thing at the top rear of the weapon?--85.210.21.76 18:45, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

It is the pivot point of the toggle. This part hits the frame on recoil as the barrel assembly moves backwards which unlocks the toggle. This allows the bolt to move rearwards and ejects the cartridge. It is also were you grasp the toggle in order to cock/load/unload the weapon. Most weapons you pull back on a cocking device, with the Luger you pull upwards in relation to the barrel. With the 1900 model equipped with a toggle lock you pull back and then up. It's easier than it sounds once you get the hang of it.

Thanks - I eventually found a diagram that showed how it works, too.

Hot ammo

What does "hot" mean in the following sentence?: "American 9 mm ammunition is nowhere near as hot as German military-spec ammunition" Could that be re-written for people unfamiliar with firearms jargon?—Preceding unsigned comment added by Jeffkw (talk • contribs)

I believe that 'hot' means it has more powder behind the bullet. Someone correct me if I am wrong. --Kalmia 11:51, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Correct "a hot load" means a load with a relatively high pressure for the given caliber. (meaning more gunpowder in the cartridge than average)

It should be noted that AND TAKEN VERY SERIOUSLY that HOT LOADS DO NOT BELONG IN A WWII LUGER ! Jamming / problems of feeding cartridges into the chamber has nothing to do with a "weak load". Those problem are related to cartridge length, overall length and bullet shape. Modern ammo is to be considered to strong for the old luger.

Sorry, but the preceeding remark is wholly incorrect. Most Luger jams are "stovepipes", i.e. caused by too low recoil force. 9mm Para ammo was loaded far hotter in pre-NATO days, often reaching 475 ft/lbs. A good, gunsmith-checked Luger will work far better with loads similar to those it has designed to handle- hotter then most contemporary commercial ammo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.41.119.73 (talk) 18:20, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

As is the new preceding remark. The P08 has several common battering points, and therefore +P and/or heavy rounds should be avoided in favor of standard velocity 115gr jacketed ammo. Hardcast lead bullets should be avoided because the vast preponderance of Lugers have some bore damage, and they will "lead up" very quickly, producing a potential pressure hazard. Those wishing to shoot ther Lugers (I shoot my 1917 quite a lot), should swab the bore lightly with a patch soaked with Johnson's Paste Wax before a range session. This will improve accuracy and velocity while simultaneously reducing pressure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.215.115.31 (talk) 19:15, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

I have to join in here for anybody who might read this: The germans loaded their 9mm ammo a little bit hotter starting in 1938. This lead to reliability problems with the parabellum pistol in WWII (which were incorrectly seen as an issue of an overly dirt sensitive gun and got the pistol a bad reputation. In fact no such problems seem to have occured in WWI with correct ammo) . Also modern 9mm Luger ammo is hotter than the original from before 1938. (I´m talking about standard 9x19, not +P!) This not only results in reliability issues but also to "teeth" marks when the toogle link hits the frame and it worns out the gun badly. 9mm Parabellum ammo is loaded a little bit lighter and is correct for the gun, although I´m not sure if all ammo manufactures comply to this nomenclature.

If you want to shoot your Parabellum Pistol, be sure to use correct light loaded ammo, if in doubt check with the manufacture, get deeper into the matter on various online forums, or load your own ammo! Or, if you want to shoot the usually cheaper and more powerfull modern loads, get a stronger recoil spring installed!

If your gun produces stovepipes with mild ammo it might have already a stronger recoil spring installed, then check if this really is the case! Truedings (talk) 21:38, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Suggested Renaming

I'm thinking this article should be renamed P08 Luger or Luger P08, as this is more correct and encyclopedic title than "Luger Pistol". Any objections? --Commander Zulu 09:55, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

It's my understanding that the article is named "Luger pistol" because the "P08" designation is a specific German military name and it is also know under the Swiss "P00" (adopted in 1900) designation among others.--Sus scrofa 13:44, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

The Luger was named P08 (Pistole 08) in the german army and P06 in the swiss army. Still the most used name for this kind/model/type of handgun is "Luger". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.84.171.1 (talk) 11:26, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

The name "Luger" was introduced and became popular in the United States. Historically, the rest of the world used the original name given by the manufacturer: Pistole Parabellum, commonly just Parabellum. The various P designations signify specific military models. e.g.: P.08 - Pistole 08 9mm 100mm barrel adopted by the German Army in 1908. P.04 - Pistole 04 9mm 150mm barrel adopted by the German Navy in 1904. etc. etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.100.196.74 (talk) 22:19, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

The last comment is right, this should be renamed "Parabellum Pistol" Truedings (talk) 21:41, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Name change

Shouldn't this be known as the P08. luger is a american term (sry if more western nations refered it to as luger) and this is a german gun. shouldn't it be refered to as the german name. p.s dont insult me and call me an idiot i make a valid point. --Esskater11 20:07, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Like I say in the section above this one, it was in swiss service as the OP00 before the German Army adapted it, the German Navy called it P04. P08 refers only to the German Army Luger and not other ones, including civilian pistols. --Sus scrofa 14:28, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Ohh. Since most of the common names of not so common aren't offical correct. i think we should have to name this artical the entire name for the gun to be right. anyone agree??? --Esskater11 23:25, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I don't quite follow. "Luger pistol" is a catchall (and common) name for this pistol, while P08 is more specific, that's all I'm saying. --Sus scrofa 13:08, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

That may be right but not every country may call it that. it might only apply to U.S --216.49.71.194 18:18, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

The article should be moved to P08 or "Parabellum pistol". "Luger" is just its US nickname. Leibniz 09:30, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

There's precedent for the naming convention on the English Language version of this article. "Parabellum pistol" is entirely too broad a name. P08 invites a disambiguation page and can be confused with the Heckler & Koch P8 pistol. In English-language circles, listing the name of the designer along with the model number and type is common. For instance M1 Garand. "Luger" isn't just a nickname, it's the name of the designer. --Asams10 09:54, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

The correct name is Parabellum P.08 & the page title should reflect that, not the American bias to "Luger". Use a redirect from that & a dab from P8 (which shouldn't come up often anyhow, since how many look for "P.08 pistol"?). --Trekphiler 06:27, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

And how many people would look for Parabellum and how many for P08 ? The overall name for this model / type of handgun is a "Luger" of which consists many types. To call it P08 (German) or P06 (Swiss) is nonsense. The SIG P210 handgun was called P49 (swiss) and therefore should be named P49 ? P08 stands for Pistole 08 meaning that this type (Luger) was introduced in the german army in 1908 nothing more nothing less. There were 7,65mm and 9mm versions. The ammunition is called 9mm ParaBellum coming from Se Vis Pacem Para Bellum, meaning "Those seeking peace, prepare for war". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.84.171.1 (talk • contribs)

If indeed "ParaBellum" comes from Se Vis Pacem Para Bellum, then this should be present in the article, and sourced/referenced, of course. --Jerome Potts (talk) 16:23, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

I think it should be renamed to Parabellum pistol since that's what the company and the designer originally called it. --Philip Laurence (talk) 18:12, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Support Philip you make a good pointБοņёŠɓɤĭĠ₳₯є 19:33, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Oppose The M14 rifle was originally concieved as the Lightweight Rifle, then the T44, then the XM14 (IIRC) and then, finally, the M14. Of those, its final designation is what we go by. Philip, your logic would have us call the M14 the Lightweight Rifle, the B-2 would be the Advanced Tactical Bomber, and Barrack Obama would be Barry Obama. In the case of the Luger, it should be something like P08 pistol or P08 Luger (as in M1 Garand) although I'm not above being convinced that the German nomenclature should weigh in the Anglophone version. --'''I am Asamuel''' (talk) 21:12, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say that. the difference being the M14 was a commissioned weapon, while the luger, if i'm not mistaken, was created by a private company. also different is the "advanced tactical bomber" was a codename and "Barry" Obama was a nickname. --Philip Laurence (talk) 21:37, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

The point was, "P08" was the official German Army designation for the pistol. Doesn't really matter what anybody else called it, if we're settling on one article, the most prolific and official name of the pistol should stand. I understand it was a commercial success, however it was MUCH more of a military success under the P08 designation. --'''I am Asamuel''' (talk) 21:51, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't want to make a big deal out of this, but it doesn't seem neutral. P08 was just a designation of one country (the swiss called it OP00 and finland the M23). the current article name is kind of like in 100 years if the beretta 92 ends up being known as an M9. --Philip Laurence (talk) 01:56, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

The FN FAL is called about a dozen things also, but FAL was what everybody settled on. P08 is what the country of origin that adopted it calls the rifle. We don't call the M16 the "AR-15" just because Stoner and Armalite called it that, do we? --'''I am Asamuel''' (talk) 12:14, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

1. That is what FN, the company that made it, called it. That is what it is universally known as, just like DWM officially named the luger the Parabellum pistole.
2. Again, AR-15 being the universal name that Armalite named their rifle, while M16 being a military designation.

--Philip Laurence (talk) 10:05, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

All the above is fine and dandy, but according to the first sentence in the article (which sites reference number 1) and reference number 2 (which I just personally checked), Luger is not the correct name. According to those "experts", DWM referred to all the pistols of this type as Parabellum pistols (P08 being only one designation of many under this umbrella). That means DWM says the "catch-all" term is "Parabellum", period. If you have a source that says DWM called them "Lugers", then say so; otherwise you're just arguing against the already accepted reliable sources (1,2). I see no reason to to continue bickering (I'm no expert, but I can read), either prove your claim or change the name to Parabellum. If we are to use the name "Luger" (as is done many times in the article), then it should be pointed out that this is done as a means of popular usage, but is not technically correct. At the very least the dichotomy of the first sentence and the rest of the article should be addressed (how can you say Luger is wrong then go on to use it everywhere?). Nwilde (talk) 02:34, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Nwilde, I think that we should change to at least something like Parabellum pistol.--Mart572 (talk) 02:30, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

In one of my WWII books it referes the Luger as the Pistole Parabellum 1908.--Martin (talk) 15:47, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I've given everyone plenty of time to oppose, I'm going to change it to Pistole Parabellum 1908.--Martin (talk) 03:35, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think anyone noticed. Luger is by far the overwhelmingly common name for this gun. Koalorka (talk) 11:46, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I'd have to see an strong WP:RS before I'd support overriding the common name (in UK/Europe/Commonwealth too). Verbal chat 13:56, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

After 10 years this still was not done. Georg Luger himself named and selled the gun as the "Parabellum Pistole", this term even is in his patent, and it is also the correct name for this article!

The term "Luger" first appeared way after 1918 in the US, ond this only in catalogues of an importer. It´s like calling every 1911, 1911A1 and civilian Colt Government the "Browning Pistol" Truedings (talk) 21:53, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Phrase in the article

Hi:

In the final section, we begin with the phrase 'Although obsolete in many ways,' without explaining why this is so. I'm not a gun person, so I may be missing an obvious point here.

Andy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.157.175.167 (talk) 05:14, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

I think it means that is obsolete compared to the type of guns produced today. Like it wouldn't be suitable for military use today, though i dont belive that statment. If you compare a Luger to a FN five seven, the Luger would look competly obselete. Well thats my answer andy, though i may be competly wrong who knows $_$BonesBrigade 05:28, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

The .45 luger

Considering it's one of the most famous and expensive pistols of all time, I'm surprised it's not already in this article. Anyone care to draft something up? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.171.61.223 (talk) 08:04, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Not the most famous or most expensive pistol of all time. Indeed, it is notable, but it's also drifting into history this being about 100 years from when it was first tested. --'''I am Asamuel''' (talk) 12:15, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

It is the most expensive semi-auto pistol that I know of. Only two are known to exist today. Pre-auction valuations are generally in the million-dollar range. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.162.249.249 (talk) 03:48, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

P08 vs. P.08

While the page name lacks the period, the page text at present uses both forms, likewise the discussions above (whose conclusions re: nomenclature I fail to grasp, by the way). I would appreciate an authentication of the model name. -- Deborahjay (talk) 09:43, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

breakdown of an 08 luger

Could someone tell me where I can find a web page that shows how to take apart an 08 luger pistol? Thank youSilverfox61 (talk) 16:45, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Please read WP:NOTFORUM then google the term "Luger disassembly". --Nukes4Tots (talk) 17:48, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Artillery Luger

It was a Luger with a extra long barral.--LandonJaeger (talk) 18:47, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

And a forward mounted rear tangent sight calibrated to 800m with automatic drift correction (the tang shifted left as it was raised) AND micrometer adjustments on both front and rear sights. Consequently the LP08 was capable of precision shooting to at least 200m. At least mine is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.215.115.31 (talk) 19:08, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Usage in Chinese Civil War

It says that it was used in the Chinese Civil War but how if the weapon was already considered obsolete and was no longer manufactured by the time of the Chinese Civil War. Anyone? --Coffeekid (talk) 04:48, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

The Chinese used many handguns on both sides during the CCW of 1927-1950 including the Luger (Parabellum): In 1924, just before the outbreak of the CCW, a review of Chinese Nationalist small arms reported that "Among officers, bodyguards, and police, the German Parabellum (Luger) 9-mm automatic pistol was the weapon of choice..." . Just because a handgun is no longer manufactured doesn't mean it isn't available and can't be pressed into service. Chinese officers (both Red and Nationalist) would have considered any Luger a prized sidearm. The C96 Mauser was an even older design and it was used by Red Chinese troops until well after the Korean War. Dellant (talk) 22:38, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

References

Dates of production

So was it produced from 1900 to 1943, or 1908 to 1945? Article is ambiguous on this point. Drutt (talk) 00:24, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Depends upon who was the manufacturer. German production was 1900-1943. Swiss 1900-1946. Not including later production by other manufacturers including Mauser using the Swiss tooling during the late 1960s-1970s and other copies.Dellant (talk) 22:55, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

As well as commercial production

The article talks about .30 Lugers being produced commercially around 1923. An old Sears catalog shows them being sold to American civilians as early as 1908. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the sentence in "usage today." Mark in Iowa (talk) 04:51, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

References

Toggle Lock

The toggle action of the Luger is unusual; I don't know of any modern hand pistol that uses it. It would be interesting if someone could add pictures or diagrams of the gun in action, showing the toggle function.98.170.195.140 (talk) 00:12, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

American Eagle photo

The Luger on the photo is a Model 1900, impossible to be a copy of the later P 08. -- hmaag (talk) 10:34, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Users

I know a local gun shop in the USA that sells Luger artillery pistols, should this be added to users ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.220.74.103 (talk) 09:40, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Lange Pistole

"(calibrated to 800 metres)" No way, guys! No fucking way! Maybe foot instead of meter, but even this would be no effective combat range for this kind of weapon/ammo.

Germany uses the metric system, so it is definitely not foot 109.84.150.140 (talk) 15:08, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

It´s true, just look at pictures of the sights on google! Also the Mauser C96 had in some variants sights set up to 1200 meters. Don´t be fooled by modern standarts of ranges in personal defense situations. These guns had detachable shoulder stocks, so were basically carbines. Against a mass of enemy troops this could´ve made sense. In WWI rifle and MG fire was sometimes used indirectly like artillery, not necessarily to hit but just to surpress the enemy, why not do this with a shoulder stock pstol. Truedings (talk) 22:15, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Picture title seems to be wrong

The Navy modell uses a 6 inch barrel. The picutre shows a standard 4 inch barrel. The title P08 of the German Reichsmarine is therefore wrong or at least misleading 109.84.150.140 (talk) 15:08, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Metric dimensions

I have amended the section references of barrel lengths in imperial inches. All Parabellum/Luger pistols were designed and manufactured using the metric system and this is the correct reference when discussing any dimensional features. (SM527RR (talk) 00:15, 16 November 2011 (UTC))

Grips material

I have deleted the paragraph stating that Luger grips were only made of plastic and that wooden grips are an aftermarket replacement. This is complete nonsense. ALL Parabellum/Luger pistols, regardless of manufacturer, were produced with wooden grips until around 1940. At that time Mauser and Kreighoff began to use plastics until the end of production in 1944. I stand to be corrected on those exact dates by someone who is more expert on the WW2 models. (SM527RR (talk) 04:17, 11 January 2012 (UTC))

I have seen post 1940 weapons with both original wooden grips and the plastic version so I don't think that you can say that plastic grips = older - I imagine that as the war progressed wooden grips may be more common simply because of supply issues - the weapon was made in a number of factories throughout WW2. Wooden grips were certainly the only option for early guns. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.178.17.94 (talk • contribs) 10:35, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

File:LA2-Blitz-0150 Parabellum-Selbstladepistole.jpg Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:LA2-Blitz-0150 Parabellum-Selbstladepistole.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests January 2012 What should I do? Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 17:28, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

P08 Luger Rate of Fire

Hello. I don't presume to be an expert on guns, (in fact I haven't fired one yet.) But does the P08 Luger have a more specific Rate of Fire than just Semi-Automatic? Let me know if I am wrong, but I have read about different semi-automatic guns and some do have different Rounds per Minute. (rpm) Am I wrong on this one? MKA — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.9.60.164 (talk) 15:09, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

AFAIK, the rate of fire of a semi-automatic firearm is determined by how fast the trigger is pulled (of course accuracy suffers from firing too fast), so there is no set cyclic rate of fire for such weapons. --Sus scrofa (talk) 16:45, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

The answer is: 116 rpm (rounds per minute), which is the maximum, not sustained, rate of fire. Source: Proceedings Of The United States Naval Institute, Annapolis MD, Vol. 27, No. 1 (March 1901) p. 436: "At the recent tests of the [Luger] pistol at the Springfield Armory thirty shots were fired from the Luger in about 15 1/2 seconds, a rate of fire of 116 shots a minute. As the magazine holds but eight cartridges, this means that the magazine must have been replaced three times, starting with the arm loaded. This is double the rate of fire obtained from any other [contemporary] automatic pistol." Dellant (talk) 16:35, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

Requested Rename

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved to "Luger pistol". No comments defended the use of "P08" and most favored "Luger" as the common name. DrKiernan (talk) 16:22, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

---

Luger P08 pistol → Parabellum pistol –

The present article should be renamed as "Parabellum pistol" as the name whith what the pistol was patented by DWM is "Parabellum". Patent was registered when DWM was formed in 1897 when the company Deutsche Metallpatronenfabrik was fusioned with the Ludwig Loewe & Co.

"Luger" is a local USA denomination. The name "Luger" was introduced later by his dealer in the USA Hans Tauscher refering to the name of his designer Georg Luger (Santiago Tavella Madariaga, Armas y Tiro Nro 33, 1969 La pistola Parabellum).

"P08" is only the name of the 1908 9x19mm model and consequently does not represent all the different models referenced in the article either.

--Aofvilla (talk) 15:18, 4 October 2012 (UTC) Buenos Aires, Argentina

• Oppose I don't know much about guns, but even I've heard of a Luger. The article says it's popularly known as such. Official names don't always matter, and probably shouldn't in this case. Perhaps this move would be wise if the gun were referred to in British English as a Parabellum, but comments above on this page suggest it isn't. --BDD (talk) 19:08, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. The clear common name is Luger. We use common name, which is not necessarily the same as official name. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:06, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
• My understanding is that 'Luger' is the most common name in English language sources, so that's what we should use. I'm in favor of moving the article back to Luger pistol and removing the 'P08' from the name. Sus scrofa (talk) 17:58, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

I'd support that as well. --BDD (talk) 18:30, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

"Parabellum" name origin

If indeed "Parabellum" comes from Si/se vis pacem, para bellum, then this should be present in the article, and sourced/referenced, of course. --Jerome Potts (talk) 16:23, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

It doesn't. 'Parabellum' was DWM's cable address which Georg Luger and DWM borrowed to name the perfected autoloading pistol and cartridge derived from the Borchardt design. 'Pistole Parabellum' sounds a lot better than 'Borchardt-Luger'. U.S. sales agents for the pistol always referred to it in their marketing after the name of the inventor, Luger, which is why Americans use that term. Since there are a lot of American gun owners, the pistol's commonly accepted name will remain 'Luger' forevermore.Dellant (talk) 12:58, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

There you go: Si vis pacem, para bellum, and two sources:

• Arnold, David W. (2011) [2004]. "The German P08 Luger". Classic Handguns of the 20th Century. Gun Digest Books. p. 18. ISBN 9781440226403. OCLC 774392892. Retrieved 2013-06-27. {{cite book}}: External link in |chapterurl= (help); Invalid |ref=harv (help); Unknown parameter |chapterurl= ignored (|chapter-url= suggested) (help)
• Kimmerle, Erin H.; Baraybar, Jose Pablo (2008). Skeletal Trauma: Identification of Injuries Resulting from Human Rights Abuse and Armed Conflict. CRC Press. p. 396. ISBN 9781420009118. OCLC 850253284. Retrieved 2013-06-27. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |chapterurl= (help)

What's missing is which was named that first: the cartridges, or the weapons? --Jerome Potts (talk) 18:32, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Guys, the latin phrase "Si vis pacem, para bellum" is here since a long time (used by an ancient roman strategist first I think, but honestly not completly sure). Derived from this Georg Luger decided that "Parabellum" is a good marketing name. So it got the Parabellum-Pistol by definition of Georg Luger and Loewe/DWM, that´s also how it´s called in his patent. And it is the correct name to sum up all variations of that gun (commercial 1900, 1902, 1906; Swiss 1900, 1900/06, german P.04, P.08...) Although the very first one of Lugers prototypes was called "Borchardt-Luger" in 1894, the "Luger" name was not applied to any production model before an US importeur decided to do so in the late 1920´s or 1930´s when they begann to start exporting again after WWI.

Georg Luger redesigned the 7,65x25 Borchardt cartridge to 7,65x21 Parabellum, and this one later to 9mm Parabellum. Both for his pistol, in which those cartridges first appeared. So of course the cartridges got the name from the gun and not the other way round. It´s like .45 ACP where the ACP stands for Automatic Colt pistol, because that´s where this cartridge first apperead: In an Automatic Pistol made by Colt. Remember, back then everybody who designed a pistol also designed a cartridge for it, first because of marketing and selling not only the gun but also the fitting ammo, second because semiauto pistols were really a new thing and they experimented with all kinds of calibers. Heck even Mauser "stole" the 7,65 Borchardt and called it 7,63 Mauser for their Mauser C96. Truedings (talk) 22:56, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Argentina

Hello there!

I have been recently on Museo de Armas de La Nación Tte. Gral. Pablo Riccheri, Buenos Aires, Argentina. In which the weapons used by the three branches of the Armed Forces were displayed and I saw both the Mauser C96 and Luger pistol displayed too alongside several other german built pistols. Since I don't have any way to add a source I could leave the picture featuring the weapons I mentioned on the display case of the museum.

--190.175.40.6 (talk) 01:17, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Annecy shooting

Does anyone here have information that can help to resolve whether it was a P06 or P08 that was used in the Annecy shooting? Currently they are referring to the P06, which a gun friend of mind has told me is very rare and quite unlikely. The question has been raised on their talk page Pmw57 (talk) 23:10, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

LP08's had micrometer adjustable front and rear sights

All the Lugers had a micrometer adjustable front sight, never heard about a micrometer adjustable rear sight. -- hmaag (talk) 11:24, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to one external link on Luger pistol. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20041115220142/http://gmund.rennlist.com:80/luger/ to http://gmund.rennlist.com/luger/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers. —^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 07:52, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Lugers or Luger's

Captured Luger's were much prized by Allied soldiers during both of the world wars as war trophies. However, during World War II, German soldiers were aware of this and would use Luger's as "bait", rigging them to detonate land mines or hidden booby traps when disturbed. I think: Luger's pistol was an evolution of the Borchard designed C 93; but capured Lugers were much prized.... -- hmaag (talk) 09:59, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Luger pistol. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150402114327/http://www.lebaneseforces.com/wsemiauto.asp to http://www.lebaneseforces.com/wsemiauto.asp

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 12:40, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Luger pistol. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110103025032/http://gunstribune.com/handguns/bulgaria/luger-9mm to http://gunstribune.com/handguns/bulgaria/luger-9mm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 13:11, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

US. Bomb proofs - not

The article contains this text "the U.S. Board of Ordnance purchased 1,000 Model 1900 Parabellum pistols with 4.75-inch barrels, marked with standard U.S. ordnance bomb proofs and "American Eagle" stamps over the chambers, "

The small stamps on early DWM Parabellum pistols that resemble a US Flame & Shell are actually a DWM in process inspection mark and not in any was related to the US test. the text should be revised to say "the U.S. Board of Ordnance purchased 1,000 Model 1900 Parabellum pistols with 4.75-inch barrels, marked "American Eagle" stamps over the chambers, " — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.100.196.74 (talk) 22:27, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Need a section on controls and manual of arms for the pistol.

Is it a Single Action, Double Action / Single Action, or Double Action? Is there a safety, magazine release, decocker, etc? Strangely this information isn't found in this article.

Baby Lugers?

Should there be some coverage of this? There were a tiny number of pre-war versions made, but also more by at least one post-war company.--Surv1v4l1st ^{╠Talk║Contribs╣} 20:21, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

And, tangentially, what about some coverage of the post-war commercial variants? I think it warrants inclusion somewhere, though most models probably don't require a standalone article. --Surv1v4l1st ^{╠Talk║Contribs╣} 19:17, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Explanation of firing sequence of Luger 9mm wrong

Barrel does not move during reloading action!! Breach and toggle lock do not barrel it is screwed into the frame of the pistol Do.nosword@gmail.com 120.20.91.21 (talk) 15:48, 14 February 2023 (UTC)