Talk:Luis Suárez (footballer, born 1997)

Requested move 19 March 2023

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. After much-extended time for discussion, there is a clear absence of consensus for a move at this time. BD2412 T 01:12, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

• Luis Suárez (footballer, born 1997) → Luis Suárez (Colombian footballer)
• Luis Suárez (footballer, born 1938) → Luis Suárez (Argentine footballer)
• Luis Suárez (footballer, born 1935) → Luis Suárez (Spanish footballer)

– There are five footballers called Luis Suárez. The first one, there is consensus that he is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC (apparently), because his article is Luis Suárez. However, there are three footballers called Luis Suárez that are all different nationalities from each other (and different from the first Suárez, who is Uruguayan). They are Spanish, Colombian, and Argentine. The first go-to disambiguator when we have players of the same name is nationality, because people are more likely to differentiate players based on where they're from rather than when they are born. So, with all the four Luis Súarez(s) having different nationalities, there is absolutely no confusion as to which one is which. Finally, there is the case of the fifth Luis Suárez, Luis Fernando Suárez. However, as the article suggests, his WP:COMMONNAME is Luis Fernando Suárez and not Luis Suárez, so there should be no confusion there. On top of that, Fernando is better known for being a manager than he was known for being a player, so that should help the case as well, as he wouldn't be mistaken for the Colombian Luis Suárez that currently plays for Almería. One could therefore argue that with PRIMARYTOPIC, Luis Suárez is the more famous (Colombian footballer) than Luis Fernando Suárez, nevermind the fact that Fernando's COMMONNAME is Luis Fernando Suárez. All in all, there is absolutely no reason to keep the disambiguation as is with the birth years, as it just makes it harder for people to find the articles. The Spanish and Colombian Suárez(s) are pretty famous and people often look at those articles, so this would aid the disambiguation process. Thank you and I hope you second this motion. Paul Vaurie (talk) 16:57, 19 March 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 15:04, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

support per WP:NCSP. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:16, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Well there are hundreds and thousands of articles that disambiguate by birth year, so we would have to move those articles too. Mwiqdoh (talk) 16:07, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

@Mwiqdoh: There is a big flaw in your argument here, my friend. Firstly, we are only concerned by footballer biographies. Secondly, those that we can disambiguate by nationality, we do so. Those that CANNOT be disambiguated by nationality, we disambiguate by birth year, and if need be, by month and some players even by birthday. However, the go-to disambiguator is nationality, as that is what people can identify faster about a player, and it helps the disambiguation process. Paul Vaurie (talk) 07:10, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

They should follow the policy. It seems bizarre to me to disambiguate against policy to match others that don't follow that policy. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 13:09, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. GiantSnowman 20:13, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose - dangerous precedent, does not take into account the ambiguous/changing nature of nationality. GiantSnowman 20:17, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
  • @GiantSnowman: Hello GS, just having a hard time understanding what you mean by this. You expect one of these four players to randomly switch his nationality to one of the aforementioned nationalities out of the blue and imminently? Paul Vaurie (talk) 07:03, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

    It's possible, and the Uruguayan footballer has played in Spain, so some readers might think that 'Spanish footballer' refers to the player in Spain. GiantSnowman 18:56, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

    There would be no mixing up with the Uruguayan player because he is the main Luis Suárez article. Paul Vaurie (talk) 05:27, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose, considering there could easily be future footballing Suárez's who could have any one of the three nationalities listed in this nom. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 21:01, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
  • @Iggy the Swan: Not to nitpick, but isn't that something that should be worried about if it is the case (which it really is extremely unlikely for the near future measured in years) more down the road? I feel like this is the correct move today with the current pages. Taking into account future, potentially unborn players sounds funny to me... Paul Vaurie (talk) 07:05, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

    Yes I think so as well re more down the road, this may be addressed at a later time than today so it makes sense to support this group of moves atm. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 21:39, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose And also I feel Luis Suárez should be the disambiguation page, to me Luis Suárez (footballer, born 1935) was the original! Govvy (talk) 23:05, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
• @Govvy: Hi Govvy! Just curious, what is your reason for opposing? You just said oppose but didn't provide any kind of guideline or reasoning. Paul Vaurie (talk) 07:06, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Because name sort goes by surname, forename and when it's the same name, goes by year of birth. This is standard convention when there is multiple, the proposal isn't future proof for the same name coming from the same country, so it would have to change all again. Govvy (talk) 11:20, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm so confused by this, our policy says the opposite:

If there are multiple footballers with the same name, use the most conclusive of the following steps: #:a. If the footballers have different nationalities, use their nationality in the disambiguation. #:b. If the footballers were born in different years, use the year they were born. #:c. If one of the footballers is, for example, a goalkeeper, use "(goalkeeper)", or other position as appropriate.

Do NOT attempt to differentiate between people simply by the qualifiers "(footballer)" and "(soccer)". Association football and soccer are different names for the same game in different parts of the English-speaking world. Follow the guidance in (2), above.

Either we need to follow what this says, or change what this says. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 13:05, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

use the most conclusive of the following steps is the line that people seem to ignore. We should use YOB where it's most helpful to the reader, and nationality where that's most helpful to the reader. Joseph2302 (talk) 13:38, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

And in my experience, using nationality is preferable when differentiating between different codes e.g. George Tanner (English footballer) and George Tanner (Australian footballer), not players who play the same code. GiantSnowman 18:55, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Hmm, if we are suggesting we should not have these as a list of importance, perhaps we should make it more noticiable rather than what looks like a priority list. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:31, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

It's clearly not an order of priority. If it was ordered so, then YOB would be top. GiantSnowman 19:56, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Unsure when this is going to happen about the creation of another page with the same name as another footballer: out from nowhere I have heard of this Morgan Rogers who has a Wikipedia article and was born on 26 July 2002. But I have also noticed another footballing Morgan Rogers who was born only 10 days earlier, according to the Watford website and may end up playing for the national team, gaining notability in the process. That causes a dilemma as to how both these Wikipedia articles should be titled but we don't need to worry or focus on that at this moment, instead focusing on this group of pages at this point. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 22:11, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

That's kinda the point - it comes across as being an ordered list. If you didn't know what the order was supposed to be, you would assume it was supposed to be in the order listed on that page. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:03, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. Using YOBs is standard disambiguation for footballers. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:21, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
  • @Necrothesp: Except it's not, since our policy says nationality is more important in this scenario... Paul Vaurie (talk) 18:33, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

    No, it does not. GiantSnowman 18:54, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

    Four years ago, both GiantSnowman and I participated in the move to further disambiguate Jota (footballer) into Jota (Spanish footballer) because more footballing Jotas were discovered including Diogo Jota (which was at Jota (footballer, born 1996) from 5 October 2018 to 16 March 2019) with the common knowledge the current Liverpool player is referred as Jota in news articles. I think that's why the Spanish Jota needed to disambiguate further and (apparently) nationality was the result: quoting, from Struway2's comment, we should consider the fact that this Jota is Spanish and the Wolves and Benfica ones are not, so Jota (Spanish footballer) would disambiguate between this and the others without having to go to birth years [1]". Some page article names these days use the nationality disambiguator based on the current revision on WP:NCSP that point a) has nationality included and I'd guess point a is more important to some Wikipedians than others.

    I don't think any of those Luis Suárez's were established national players anyway when I looked at the caps won between them, the Uruguayan has more than the others combined. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 22:02, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

    • Except it is. Take a look at how most footballers are disambiguated. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:52, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
• Support as per WP:NCSP, either YOB or nationality can be used. In this instance, nationality seems much easier for the casual reader to distinguish, as they are more likely to know if someone is Spanish or Argentinian, rather than knowing whether someone was born in 1935 or 1938. Joseph2302 (talk) 13:38, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Consensus is leaning towards moving, but as the discussion has not yet been relisted I am doing so in the hope that consensus can become clearer. BilledMammal (talk) 15:04, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

• Comment, I'd move the Uruguayan footballer too, since by long-term significance he isn't more important than the Spanish Balon D'Or winner.--Ortizesp (talk) 05:27, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose it seems inevitable that we will have to reverse this move "soon". And, as Ortizesp notes, it isn't entirely clear that the Uruguayan footballer from the 2010 World Cup is more notable than the Spanish footballer who won the 1960 Balon D'Or. Walt Yoder (talk) 17:44, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.