Talk:Lunch Date

Billing of the actress now known as BB Gandanghari

I am pinging @Hotwiki for consensus-building via talk-page on this matter. I contend that MOS:GENDERID gives precedence, with respect to trans individuals, to the latest self-designation expressed by such individuals. @Hotwiki has expressed their disagreement with this, citing MOS:TV. From my reading of MOS:TV, the pertinent clause reads "All names should be referred to as credited, or by common name supported by a reliable source", of which the latter would seem to still allow for the listing of Gandanghari according to her current name. Sustenance in Sonder - IseDaByThatEditsTheBoat 09:35, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

BB Gandanghari was billed as "Rustom Padilla" in this show and the other article you are edit warring. Its simple as that. It is simply misinformation that you keep changing the nane to another name when that another/newer nane wasn't even created when these two shows were airing. Also, if you are to ask BB Gandanghari, she would tell you that the actor that appeared in these two shows is "Rustom Padilla" not BB Gandanghari. As she calls her previous self in her previous tv shows/projects as "Rustom" before she changed her name. So please stop edit warring, thank you!TheHotwiki (talk) 12:14, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

@Hotwiki, if I were edit-warring, I would not be discussing this on the talk page. In response to "As she calls her previous self in her previous tv shows/projects as "Rustom" before she changed her name.", MOS:GENDERID is invoked, with the addition of my reading of the relevant clause of MOS:TV. Admittedly, I may be on the wrong track here in regards to MOS:TV - however, your assertion that "Also, if you are to ask BB Gandanghari, she would tell you that the actor that appeared in these two shows is "Rustom Padilla" not BB Gandanghari." is uncited. I am requesting a third opinion in order to arbitrate this, as a fresh perspective may be helpful. Sustenance in Sonder - IseDaByThatEditsTheBoat 12:40, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

You can watch BB Gandanghari's interviews for additional research. Thing is you were claiming that its a "disrespect" to use the person's former name, when the person in discussion refers to her previous name in regarding to her past. Also, it still doesn't change the fact that you are posting a screen name that wasn't even credited during the show's original run.TheHotwiki (talk) 14:30, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm also not quite sure where, on either this talk page or the edit history of the page, I said "its [sic] a "disrespect" to use the person's former name, when the person in discussion refers to her previous name in regarding to her past". Consider WP:COMMONNAME, where BB Gandanghari is the name she identifies by now, and is therefore the most commonly recognisable name for her and the name on her article. Also, WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, with an example being Kendall Jenner's page listing her as being born to 'Caitlyn Jenner and Kris Jenner' in the lead, despite Caitlyn not being known by that name at the time of Kendall's birth. Sustenance in Sonder - IseDaByThatEditsTheBoat 16:12, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Response to third opinion request:

I am responding to a third opinion request for this page. I have made no previous edits on Lunch Date and have no known association with the editors involved in this discussion. The third opinion process is informal and I have no special powers or authority apart from being a fresh pair of eyes.

Have you considered that MOS:GENDERID has different guidelines for the main biographical article and references in other articles? In the latter, we are to "use context to determine which name or names to provide on a case-by-case basis". It seems to me that here the credits of the show seem like a good context? I see that MOS:TV allows "common name supported by a reliable source", but does not require us to use such a common name. (From the phrasing of the quoted sentence in MOS:TV one could also guess that the second option (common name) is less preferable than the first (as credited), although this is ambiguous.) Nevertheless, there are only two mentions of the person in question in this article. Could a compromise be to list them as "Rustom Padilla (now known as BB Gandanghari)"? I don't think that violates the MOS:GENDERID guideline to "not go into detail over changes in name or gender presentation". Kaĉjo (talk) 17:43, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

It's a skosh objectionable to me, but I think that's a fair compromise for the article. Thank you for the arbitration and perspective, @Kaĉjo. Sustenance in Sonder - IseDaByThatEditsTheBoat 22:10, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

When the link for Rustom Padilla already links to BB Gandanghari in the first place, I don't see any problem. My argument still stands. The name "BB Gandanghari" was never credited in these two shows - Lunch Date and La Vendetta in the first place.TheHotwiki (talk) 22:28, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Hotwiki, could you clarify what the objection is, exactly? Do you believe this violates MOS:GENDERID because it goes into too much "detail over changes in name or gender presentation"? If it is only that you see no reason to include this information, how do you take MOS:GENDERID "Give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources" into account? I would suggest that for the matter of respect it is much more forthcoming to explicitly mention the new name in the running text, as many readers will not follow or hover over the link to see the new name. Kaĉjo (talk) 07:51, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

I am merely following MOS:TV. The screenname BB Gandanghari wasn't used in the show as this show aired and ended before the name "BB Gandanghari" was created. Like the other user said, this is a case by case basis. This article is for a TV show, not BB. So just stick with the name that was billed in this show.TheHotwiki (talk) 08:02, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

I've also checked Wikipedia articles related to Caitlyn Jenner, and the name Bruce Jenner is still used/credited in Wikipedia articles like these four:[1] [2][3][4]. I'm mentioning those Wikipedia articles as Caitlyn Jenner was brought up in this discussion. TheHotwiki (talk) 08:15, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

I see. I can only say that in most of those articles, Jenner is mentioned in tables where there is less space. In the present article we have a list where there is enough space to mention the new name. Other than that, I don't have much to add here, I'm afraid. Kaĉjo (talk) 09:10, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

@Hotwiki, in at least one of the article you've linked to, there is still a footnote acknowledging Jenner's current name (several of the other articles had a footnote but were removed sometime in the edit history); as well as extensive discussion on the talkpages of several others about which name to list her as, for events occurring in retrospect of her name change. As well, a reminder that I've accepted Kaĉjo's suggestion on how to bill Gandanghari. Sustenance in Sonder - IseDaByThatEditsTheBoat 11:00, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Just a little reminder,just because you've agreed to something, it doesn't mean its a consensus!TheHotwiki (talk) 00:05, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Well, I guess we're moving onto DRN, then ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Sustenance in Sonder - IseDaByThatEditsTheBoat 10:32, 27 June 2020 (UTC)