Talk:Lutheran Mariology

POV Article

This article's POV is misleading. Several statements in this article do not reflect the views of all Lutherans. Not all Lutherans believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary, and some Lutherans believe that Jesus had brothers and sisters. This article needs editing. KitHutch (talk) 20:01, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

I am currently working on that in my sandbox and hope to add it to the article soon. Shark96z (talk · contribs) 22:00, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

An easy way to take care of the POV issues without removing content would be to simply describe the controversial parts as being a view, belief, or practice of High Church Lutherans. Then, the views, beliefs, and practices of the Old & Neo Lutheran revivalists could be added to complete the picture.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 03:41, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. There should definitely be a discussion in the article explaining differences in views on Mary between different groups of Lutherans. doorautomatica (talk) 17:57, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church, for example, are both Lutheran but have very different views on Mary, Saints, and other beliefs. --Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 02:12, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Luther use of rosary

Would anyone know Luther stand on the rosary ? he seem to pratice it until his death. I know he used the ave maria with vocation of mary at the end, but i think assumption of Mary was always one of mecation to rosary. Oh for record i find this article very refresh that some Lutherans would agree with me.Those I still think rev 12:1-6 could be seen as mary being taking up to heavan. Also if Jesus had brothers that most protestant claims why would not one of them came forward and took Mother mary in ? (Monkish1978 (talk) 15:02, 16 March 2011 (UTC))

Sorry what? --ZARguy (talk) 13:13, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

removing POV tag with no active discussion per Template:POV

I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:

This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. Remove this template whenever:

1. There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved
2. It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given
3. In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant.

Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 01:09, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Luther but not Lutheran

Lutheran theology does not follow all of Martin Luther's opinions. The various Lutheran churches and synods base their theology more on the Bible than on Luther's extensive writings. This article needs to be retitled as Luther's Marian theology. Grantmidnight (talk) 01:02, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Done. KitHutch (talk) 19:11, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

- I have made further separation of Luther's beliefs from those of the many current Lutheran Synods. More separation is needed. Grantmidnight (talk) 16:00, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

I restored a little of what you deleted. It is important to keep the "Why does this matter today?" aspects of the article, so I kept content where Luther's beliefs matter with regard to the modern church. Andrew³²⁷ 12:33, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 11 January 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Anupam^Talk 21:07, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

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Luther's Marian theology → Lutheran Mariology – It was suggested here as an alternative to merging this page. The current problem with this page is that it is a POV-fork from Theology of Martin Luther, with that article presenting a more Reformed-compatible Luther and this one a more Catholic-compatible Luther. However, as Bnng noted in the discussion linked to above, this page is already leaning to a broader approach of Lutheran Mariology anyway, so why not move the article there and adjust the article's scope to broaden it even more. Epiphyllumlover (talk) 03:22, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

• Support: Lutheran Mariology has a broader scope and the suggested title is consistent with Mariology in other Christian denominations, such as Anglican Marian theology and Catholic Mariology. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 03:35, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support per proposal rationale. Ltwin (talk) 10:47, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support, though I would prefer the article be moved back to Lutheran Marian theology, which was the title of this article until August 27, 2014. User:KitHutch moved it to its current title, with the reasoning, "Most Lutheran churches do not follow this aspect of Luther's theology." I prefer "Lutheran Marian theology" to "Lutheran Mariology" both because it was the original title of the article and because I think "Marian theology" is more readily understood than "Mariology." Bnng (talk) 05:49, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
• Comment I just looked, and seems that both terms are in use: Google ngram viewer results for both terms. In general it would be better to pick the term Lutherans themselves would use. A quick search online finds Chapman (a Lutheran) using "Lutheran Mariology." The term is also found in the Christian Cyclopedia, along with the similar sounding term Mariolatry. However, a use of "Lutheran Mariology" in this footnote comes from a Catholic writer, and I found a variety of other Catholic sources discussing Lutheran Mariology with that phrase.

I should add that no matter what name is chosen I think the content should be the same. The more speculative (this judgement is only my preliminary opinion) connection would be to try to tie Lutheran feminist theology to Lutheran Marian theology/Mariology. At the far end of this tie-in would be to attribute the impulse behind Lutheran feminist theology to latent crypto-Catholicism. I do not intend to edit the article in this direction no matter which name is chosen.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 21:30, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the references. I'm surprised by the ngram results, but in light of them, and in light of the other references you included, I withdraw my preference for "Lutheran Marian theology." Bnng (talk) 23:20, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

I just re-read my post above. I did not write it good. My problem is that "Marian theology" is not typically used in the general sense by Lutherans due to qualms about "development of doctrine," while "Mariology" is used as synonymous with "Mariolatry" by some Lutherans, and is foreign enough to most Lutherans so as to be confused with "Mariolatry". Instead of Lutheran Mariology, now I think the best name is Lutheran views on Mary. There are many Wikipedia articles named with the formula of "X Religious group views on Y subject". If there is a problem with "Lutheran views on Mary," my second best choice would be Luther's theology of Mary. I know it is a POV fork to the other Luther's theology page, but that is preferable to alienating a chunk of the Lutheran readership of the article. (Consider also the level of controversy in the content itself.)

In retrospect I don't think my ngram search was helpful at all. I tried ngram results with "Lutheran" in front of the terms, but got no results, even when I checked "case insensitive". The ngram results in the above post for "Mariology" are probably 99% Anglican, Catholic, and Orthodox writers.

The problem with the term Mariology could be that it implies a cultivation of a personal relationship with Mary as part of the overall framework of thought. Some Lutherans do this, but this practice lacks the significance within Lutheranism that it enjoys in Catholicism. Also it sounds like Mariolatry, and your average Lutheran layperson probably has about as much familiarity with "Mariology" as with "Mariolatry." Even worse, this 1954 writing by a clergyman who switched from Catholic to Lutheran uses Mariology as synonymous with Mariolatry. Another writing from 2014 uses Mariology only in the sense of what Catholics believe.

The problem with "Marian theology" is that Lutherans typically have just one theology, with various doctrines. And technically it just one doctrine, with various facets of doctrine. I know this seems like splitting epistemological hairs, but there is a reason for it. A certain portion of Lutherans are concerned about implicitly endorsing a "development of doctrine" approach rather than a "faith delivered once for all to the saints" approach to doctrine. As such they only enumerate something as "X doctrine" if it was a contested issue in church history. They are stingy about designating something as its own doctrine as if they will only do it if they must.

Everything Lutherans positively teach about Mary is uncontested by Catholics and Orthodox. The differences come where Lutherans reject things taught by others. As such to Lutherans the topic of Mary has not been controverted enough for it to be considered its own doctrine or theology. So they tend not to use terms like "Marian theology." The difference in aptitude between Catholics and Lutherans to enumerate separate doctrines is explained in some detail on page 244 and following of this doctrine book. (Although the book is self-published, it has received enough attention from denominational publications that it would be a legitimate source for use on Wikipedia.)

This epistemological issue is not limited to just Mary. For example, a search for "Mosaic theology" gives a variety of Protestant sources, but searching for "Lutheran Mosaic theology" does not ring up anything.

Some other observations I had:

I looked in Mueller's dogmatics, expecting to see a subheading like "Doctrine of Mary." There was nothing. Marian doctrines were folded into a variety of "Doctrine of Christ" subtopics.

This summary[1] uses the phrase "Lutheran View of Mary."

This writing by Swan is called Martin Luther’s Theology of Mary. By qualifying it as "Martin Luther's," Swan is able to use the term "Theology of Mary" with less objection from those with qualms about development of doctrine. The more general phrase "Marian theology" is not found in this writing.

This writing by Schnekloth uses the term "Marian theology" to refer to what Lutherans believe about Mary. That said, this writing comes from the neo-orthodox and ecumenical perspective. In general neo-orthodox Christians are okay with development of doctrine. So this doesn't solve the problem with the other Lutherans who are not okay with development of doctrine being displeased with a "Lutheran Marian theology" title.

Searching on google for "doctrine of Mary" gives far more results for "Doctrine of Mary's ___insert contested item here___".Epiphyllumlover (talk) 02:25, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

In light of the comments given by those who have participated in this discussion, I'm going to go ahead and move the article, unless there are any objections. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 20:35, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.