Talk:Lutheran chorale

Lutheran bias

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The discussion below is from before the Lutheran chorale article was split from the Chorale article, and explains the reasons for that split. As the bias discussion, however, became moot after that split, and is only kept here for documentary purposes, subsequent discussions should go either in new sections on this page or at Talk:Chorale. --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:32, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

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This article seemingly deals only with Lutheran chorales. This is misleading: Chorales clearly existed long before Luther. I changed the introduction in an auxiliary manner (see diff ). But I am far from being knowing enough to mend the article. Tomdo08 (talk) 01:09, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

• I'd move this article to Lutheran chorale, and then write here a more general article about chorale in its different forms, and include its entire history. What I'm missing is, for instance,
  • César Franck's chorals (translated as Chorales in English), for organ, for piano,...
  • First movement of Mahler's fifth symphony (... Alma's disagreement with her husband's audacity to include a chorale)
  • Last movement of Saint-Saëns' 3rd symphony (the chorale melody later made it to a hit in pop music)
  • Satie's Choral inappetissant
  • Last movement of Mendelssohn's Reformation Symphony (this one is a Lutheran chorale, but one can't very well talk about chorales in symphonies without mentioning this one)
  • Etc.

--Francis Schonken (talk) 16:48, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Outline for new "Chorale" article

Originally choral settings of Lutheran hymn tunes, and later also several instrumental genres, e.g. organ pieces from around the 17th century, and pieces for orchestra or piano from around the 19th century.

Essential characteristics of a chorale:

1. Text: metric Lutheran hymn
2. Metric tune or melody associated with the hymn text
3. Homophonic part-setting (mostly four-part harmony for SATB) of text and melody

Later chorales not necessarily combine all of these characteristics, e.g.:

• only a known hymn tune in baroque organ chorales, or even only a chorale-like tune (not associated to any text) in late Romantic organ chorales
• only a chorale-like melody presented in a chorale-like harmonisation, as in the last movement of Saint-Saëns' 3rd symphony

Role in development of four-part harmony

Derivative genres such as chorale fantasia

==History==

Rhythmic approach (metre: as well for text as for melody) as opposed to preceding Gregorian chant.

Building block of Harmonielehre (≈canon of Western music) as taught from the late 17th to 21st century

===16th century===

Walter 1524 → ...

Melody in tenor part

Bulk of hymn text and hymn tune creations

===17th century===

Schein's Cantional etc

In such hymnals the composer providing the harmonisation may be more often mentioned than the composer of the original hymn tune

Hymn tune mostly in highest vocal part (exceptions where the hymn tune remains in the tenor are indicated as fauxbourdon settings)

More or less fixed associations of hymn texts with hymn tunes

Organ chorales: ..., Pachelbel, ...

===18th century===

Bach etc:

• Chorale movements in cantatas (also Passions, Oratorios): Meiningen, Stölzel, ...
• Other figuraliter settings of hymn tunes: chorale fantasia; stand-alone chorales (e.g. Bach's Three Wedding Chorales)
• Further development of organ chorale
• Hausmusik, e.g. Anna Magdalena Notebook

Congregational singing (i.e. choraliter, as opposed to figuraliter) however moves toward monodic singing of the chorale melody, with an instrumental accompaniment for the harmony; less hymn tunes used: texts with a similar metre scheme can be sung to a better-known melody.

===19th century===

Revival, Mendelssohn etc

Hymnology, e.g. Zahn

Romantic interpretations, e.g. symphonies, chorales not necessarily based on a pre-existing tune

===20th to 21st century===

More revival and (late) romantic interpretations, e.g. Busoni

Modern interpretations, e.g. Satie

==Types==

Originally choral music, later also diverse types of instrumental music

"Stollen" type

===Vocal===

Archetype: four-part harmony, SATB, homophony

====Part song====

Hymnals:

• Melody in tenor part, three- to five-part settings, e.g. Eyn geystlich Gesangk Buchleyn (Walter 1524)
• Four- to six-part settings, with thorough bass accompaniment, e.g. Neu Leipziger Gesangbuch (Vopelius 1682)

Collections, e.g. Bach's four-part chorale editions

Colla parte accompaniment, e.g. closing chorales of Bach-cantatas

====Elaborate choral settings====

Chorale fantasia, e.g. opening movement of St Matthew Passion (in English rather called Chorus than Chorale)

====Monodic with instrumental accompaniment====

Voice and continuo, e.g. Schemellis Gesangbuch (1736) – rather called Lied in German

===Instrumental===

In instrumental chorale settings, as well emulations of four-part homophony, as chorale fantasia type of approaches exist.

Originally Choralbearbeitung, setting of a pre-existing chorale melody

====Organ====

Chorale preludes, e.g. Erster Theil etlicher Choräle (Pachelbel), Clavier-Übung III (Bach)

Not based on pre-existing hymn tunes, e.g. César Franck's Trois chorals

====Orchestra====

In symphonies, e.g. Mendelssohn, Saint-Saëns, Mahler

====Other====

Piano, e.g. Franck, Busoni, Satie

==References==

==Sources==

• ...

==External links==

• ...

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--Francis Schonken (talk) 06:49, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

How about moving this thread, to Talk:Chorale and/or to an archive? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:09, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Additional citations

Why and where does this article need additional citations for verification? What references does it need and how should they be added? Hyacinth (talk) 01:53, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Chorale vs. hymn

The opening at present is "A chorale is a melody to which a hymn is sung by a congregation in a German Protestant Church service." I don't understand it. I believe that a chorale (=Choral?) is not "a melody" nor is it defined by the melody alone. I also don't think that it is exclusively German. Gregorianischer Choral (Gregorian chant) is mostly in Latin. How does chorale compare to hymn? How to Chorale setting? (Thinking of Berg's use of Bach's chorale in his violin concerto.) - How does Chorale (=Kantorei), a choir dedicated mostly to sacred music (Gächinger Kantorei) come into play? How Choralschola. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:07, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

• Maybe this can enlighten: wikisource:A Dictionary of Music and Musicians/Chorale. It's not completely up to date probably, and gives no attention to (for instance) also the French word choral being translated as chorale in English.

FYI, Gregorianischer Choral is not usually tranlated into "Gregorian chorale" in English, there are other words for that (Gregorian chant is used most often for that I believe), so Gregorian can easily be disambiguated to elsewhere.

The whole area of connected articles needs to be reformed: I thought, I'd start with this one which should give the general overview. --Francis Schonken (talk) 18:01, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Lutheran hymn redirect

Moved here from Talk:Chorale#chorale vs. hymn:

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I confess to not like the deep link to Liturgy in Lutheranism, as it doesn't even arrive at the section header (possibly because of tags?), starting (for me) mid-sentence with "is well known for its doctrinal, didactic, and musical richness". How helpful is that? If you find the section header, you still don't know in wich article you, and read about Norwegian minorities, first thing. I made Lutheran hymn a redirect to Lutheran chorale because I believe the two terms mean pretty much the same. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:27, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Add a ==Lutheran hymn== section to the Lutheran chorale article? Doesn't seem too difficult (I suppose a few sentences can be copy-pasted, with minor finetuning, from the Liturgy section in the Lutheranism article). After which the Lutheran hymn bluelink in the lead of the Lutheran chorale article can be de-linked, and the redirect re-redirected to the Lutheran chorale article. --Francis Schonken (talk) 14:36, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

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Please continue talk here, on this topic --Francis Schonken (talk) 15:32, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Inopportune link changes

@Gerda Arendt: please stop converting [[Lutheran hymn]] to [[Lutheran chorale|Lutheran hymn]]. In most cases the conversion is incorrect. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:30, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

You say it's incorrect, I say there's no difference between a Lutheran hymn and a Lutheran chorale, just two words for the same thing. See below, and explain there. The present link to Lutheran hymn (deep link to liturgy, landing mid-sentence, explaining some Norwegian minorities) is unhelpful, imho. Better no link than that one. I am tempted to remove it but have better things to do. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:46, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

Please, if you don't understand it and I don't understand it, then follow the reliable sources: call it a hymn when they do, call it a chorale when they do.

A simple distinction, at least, is that some authors wrote the text of a hymn many years before someone else composed a tune for it. A hymn without a setting can of course never be a chorale. Thus, also, referring to a "stanza" of a chorale, when referring to text content, usually at least sounds a bit odd: in such case one usually refers to the (text of a) hymn. Note also that chorales were often written down or published without text, and that some textless chorales can have stanza-like subdivisions (e.g. chorale partitas). --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:20, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

When someone writes a text without a melody, would you (ore someone) call that a hymn? I wouldn't. Von guten Mächten was a poem, possibly not intended to be sung. It became a hymn (only) by adding a melody, no? - I often write "hymn" instead of "chorale" just to avoid word repetition, for example "chorale cantata based on a hymn", rather than "chorale cantata based on a chorale", which would be more logical. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:34, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

Afaik e.g. Johann von Rist wrote hymns, not chorales. Why are we having this same discussion in two different sections on this page? More tiring than it needs to be if you ask me... --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:05, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

Also, Winkworth publishes her translations as "hymns": even without music these texts can apparently be indicated as hymns; the indication "chorale" would however not fit these hymn texts as far as I can tell. --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:25, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

I am a foreigner to the English language, so can only go by what I am told: "song of praise or worship", - or should that be modified? ... or do I understand "song" too literally? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:47, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

Yes, you've made it very clear that you won't go looking for reliable sources, but prefer to keep mulling around in WP:V-defying generally unreliable user-generated content without straightforward way to check the reliability of its contentions. Please stop it: not helpful. If you're really looking for an answer to the questions that might help building this article then maybe go look for reliable sources on the topic. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:26, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

Another, where the meanings of hymn and chorale don't overlap: one can speak of the Stollen of a chorale, not about the Stollen of a hymn: certainly not for hymns that can be sung to different tunes, some of which may have a Stollen while others not. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:26, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

Hymn as "words only"

See p. viii of the Lightwood source I just added to the "Further reading" section: in certain contexts the word "hymn" can apparently refer to the text of the hymn only (without its setting to whatever tune). Summarizing: "hymn" can mean (in certain contexts) "words only"; "chorale" can mean (in certain contexts) "tune (or setting) only"; "hymn" and "chorale" are only synonyms in those contexts where both text and tune are meant; for Wikipedia usage I suggest to use "hymn text"/"words of the hymn"/"stanzas of the hymn"/"chorale translation"/(etc) when the context doesn't make otherwise clear that only the text is meant, and conversely "hymn tune"/"chorale melody"/"chorale setting"/(etc) when the context doesn't make otherwise clear that only the music is meant; when both text and associated (monodic) melody are meant I'd prefer "hymn" over "chorale"; when "text" + "tune" + "continuo accompaniment" are meant still rather "hymn" than "chorale"; when a more elaborate composition is meant, with or without sung text (e.g. a chorale prelude or a SATB chorale harmonisation) I'd prefer "chorale" over "hymn". --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:47, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

example of the terminology proposed above: BWV 478 is usually named a "hymn" ("hymn text" + "hymn tune" + "continuo accompaniment" found in Schemellis Gesangbuch); Stokowski's arrangement of the same (orchestral setting, no text) would however usually be called a "chorale". --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:58, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

Lead

Is this a Lutheran chorale?

Today, this is the lead:

A Lutheran chorale is a musical setting of a Lutheran hymn, intended to be sung by a congregation in a German Protestant Church service. The typical four-part setting of a chorale, in which the sopranos (and the congregation) sing the melody along with three lower voices, is known as a chorale harmonization.

My questions, which may be silly.

• What is a Lutheran hymn? The link doesn't tell me. Is it only words? So far - but may be my American training - I thought a hymn is what you find in a hymnal which is a musical setting, often even four-part.
• "Intended to be sung by a congregation", no, early hymnals (Erfurt Enchiridion) were intended rather for private use.
• German? At first, yes. But today?
• "The typical four-part harmony", - Nicolai's "Wachet auf" is words and melody, - does it become a chorale only when a four-part setting is added. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:28, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Regarding your second question: the Erfurt Enchiridion article does not contain the word "chorale". If the publication contained chorales that would've been mentioned in the article, no? So whether or not these are to be sung by a congregation seems a quite irrelevant question for the Lutheran chorale article. Afaik, the first publication containing Lutheran chorale settings is Eyn geystlich Gesangk Buchleyn, published in the same year as the Erfurt Enchiridion (1524). Note also that "congregation" is not limited to attendants of a service in a church: it means that there is no distinction between "audience" and "singers performing for an audience", but that all participate in singing the hymn. Afaik, Luther intended to initiate a culture of congregational singing, as opposed to a culture of exclusively "Figuralmusik" (performed by a choir and musicians for a congregation that listened without singing themselves).
  • Another oddity of the current intro (make that question #5 if you will) is the "sopranos (...) sing the melody": not really: originally the tenor part sung the hymn melody, only much later gradually changing the concept to assigning the hymn tune to the highest voice. At least until the 17th century chorales with the hymn tune in the tenor part continued, then indicated as "fauxbourdon" (e.g. [1]). --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:13, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Also, again, much of the unclarity can be dissolved by carefully reading wikisource:A Dictionary of Music and Musicians/Chorale, which explains at least some of the technicalities. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:22, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Can we take some of that dictionary? Would have to distinguish "reformed" - what Luther reformed is one thing, but "Reformierte Kirche" means the Calvin-Zwingly-branch, at least in German. - Next question: when and where was "Choral" first used?

I feel supported that a chorale is "a sacred choral song", so to my understanding the same as a hymn: a song not to be sung by a soloist or performer but a group/congregation, - I see nothing about four (or other number) parts. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:13, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Trying

A Lutheran chorale is a chorale (or hymn) written for use primarily in Lutheran church services, to be sung by the congregation. Early Lutheran chorales were developed in the process of the Reformation, when Martin Luther encouraged congregational singing, and wrote several hymns himself, often derived from Latin and German traditional models. Characteristic elements were strophic form and rhythmic music. For the musical aspect, Luther was assisted by Johann Walter who helped with the melodies and wrote musical settings for several parts, first published in the choral hymnal Eyn geystlich Gesangk Buchleyn (A sacred song booklet) in 1524. Several hymnals followed, ... Lutheran chorales were translated to other languages ... --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:31, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

Imho "A Lutheran chorale is a musical setting of a Lutheran hymn..." works better as start, but the rest of the lead must be somewhat rewritten, e.g. by making distinctions in which guises a Lutheran chorale can appear (four-part setting, instrumental-only, liturgical context, private context such as in A. M. Bach's notebook, etc.); and/or by pointing out historical phases: originally vocal-only (single melody or as homophony-type part-song), then also for organ, then also incorporated in larger works/Figuralmusik such as cantatas and Passions, and for congregational singing mostly monodic voice-part with instrumental accompaniment from the late 17th century. --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:56, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

I still don't see the difference between chorale and hymn, and the wording "a musical setting of a hymn" doesn't help. Nicolai's chorale "Wachet auf, ruft uns die Stimme" is a "musical setting" (with lyrics and melody by him), for example, and I'd think there's no hymn without music. A chorale is what a chorale prelude or a chorale cantata can be based on, but is already a chorale, or not? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:10, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

See above (not going to repeat all of that here). Someone can be a hymn-writer without having written down a single note of music. A chorale, however, can not be written down without music. It can be written down without text, but not without music. Conversely, a hymn can be written down without music, but not without text. The meaning of the words "chorale" and "hymn" can only overlap where both text and music are present, but that is not the same as the two words being synonyms. A Lutheran chorale (whether or not text is present) is always a musical setting of a Lutheran hymn (so implying at least a reference to a text, even if no text is present). --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:55, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

An example to make it clearer: Pachelbel's Erster Theil etlicher Choräle can be seen as a collection of chorales, not as a collection of hymns. --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:09, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

Another example, the second Schübler Chorale is titled "Wo soll ich fliehen hin oder Auf meinen lieben Gott". It can never be a hymn (it refers to two different hymn texts, usually sung to the same tune), but it is a chorale. --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:27, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

How about this:

A Lutheran chorale is a musical setting of a Lutheran hymn. Such hymns are characterised by a metrical hymn text and an associated hymn tune which is metrical in a musical sense. In a narrow sense the musical setting of the Lutheran hymn can refer to the associated hymn tune, also known as chorale melody. The term Lutheran chorale can also refer to more extended musical settings of, or associated with, a Lutheran hymn. For instance, and most typically, a four-part harmony setting for a SATB chorus rendering the hymn text in homophony, or a piece for organ incorporating a Lutheran chorale tune. These organ compositions are often indicated as chorale prelude, whether or not they were intended as a prelude.

? (this would probably call for some further updates to the article text...) --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:51, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

(ec) A good start, but I don't like the (missing) logic of "a musical setting of a musical setting". What do you think of moving the article again, to Lutheran hymn, because all we say about chorale is derived from it. Thinking loud:

A Lutheran hymn is a sacred song for a Lutheran church service, intended to be sung by the congregation. These hymns were introduced during the Reformation. They are are characterised by a metrical hymn text and an associated hymn tune which is metrical in a musical sense. Such a hymn was also called a Lutheran chorale, or just a chorale. The term chorale is also applied to the typical four-part harmony setting of a hymn tune (or chorale melody) for a SATB chorus rendering the hymn text in homophony. Single hymn stanzas in four-part settings have been used in cantatas and oratorios, especially by Johann Sebastian Bach. Other musical forms derived from Lutheran hymns include settings for organ, often indicated as chorale prelude whether or not they were intended as a prelude, and extended settings for choir such as chorale cantatas, which often begin with a chorale fantasia. Lutheran hymn tunes have been quoted in symphonies and operas.

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:20, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

There is no implicit logic of "a musical setting of a musical setting" in my proposal: a Lutheran hymn has two key characteristics:

1. a hymn text (as appearing in Lutheran tradition)
2. a hymn tune (as associated with the hymn text in Lutheran tradition)

#2 can be indicated as "chorale": it is a monodic musical setting of the hymn (as one of the meanings of chorale), #1 however not. Of course a hymn tune can appear in a more extended composition, and several of such compositions can be called chorale too (a vocal chorale fantasia is however not usually indicated as "chorale": in English that would be usually indicated as "Chorus", not "Chorale"; a chorale prelude in chorale fantasia form can be called "chorale" in English, but that doesn't distinguish it from chorale preludes that use, for example, a four-part homophonic form).

I'd put your proposal under the redirect instruction at Lutheran hymn, as a start for further expansion, if it weren't so incorrect and confusing (could expand the reasons for that in about a paragraph for every sentence, but would take too much time: most of it is also already elaborated in several fashions above). --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:11, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

What do you think of wording it in Chorale, and redirecting to sections there? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:16, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

Too early to tell. Also, you can help by providing reliable sources, and writing text based on them. Asking questions about what can be done after the basic information goes live in Wikipedia, or making unsourceable proposals is however less helpful: it doesn't exactly speed up the process of generating presentable mainspace content. Also, for links and redirects I wouldn't change anything any more before the content is optimised. E.g. I don't care whether ultimately we would have separate articles on Lutheran hymn and Lutheran chorale, or one that combines both, but changing links in the meanwhile (before we know what it's going to look like) might be a lot of wasted work that might ultimately be needing reverts. For instance, above in the #Lutheran hymn redirect subsection, I proposed to "add a ==Lutheran hymn== section to the Lutheran chorale article". Still think that might be worthwhile, but I never saw a reaction to that idea, and even less someone starting to implement it (which I would still encourage, doesn't need to be talked about on this page as long as the content of such section would be rooted in appropriate reliable sources of course). Maybe creating such section would also make optimising the lead section easier. --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:50, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

Earliest examples of calling a hymn tune a "chorale"?

Thus far I couldn't find any example of someone calling the tune of a Lutheran hymn a chorale before the late 19th century (and even these examples, i.e. in Busoni's oeuvre, are ambiguous because they don't distinguish between the composer of a hymn tune and the composer elaborating that tune into a four-part chorale). Is there any reliable source that can confirm that a (Lutheran) hymn tune is called "chorale" in the 16th century? 17th century? 18th century? first half of the 19th century? --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:52, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

Earliest (1893) I don't know, English I don't know, but just came across this German sentence: "Die Mel. zu diesem Liede gilt für einen der schönsten Choräle, ..." here, which I would translate: "The melody to this song is regarded as one of the most beautiful chorales". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:02, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

The earliest example of English usage given in the OED is 1841, by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, who cited the German term: "David's harp in the North-land Tuned to the Choral of Luther". The earliest cited use of the word with the added final letter e is 1855, in an English translation of Johann Georg Albrechtsberger's composition treatise. The German spelling continued to be used in English until at least the fourth quarter of the 19th century. OED speculates that the final e was added to indicate stress on the final syllable, by analogy to words like "locale" and "morale", since the spelling "choral" can easily be mistaken for the adjective meaning "of or belonging to a choir". OED also says that this spelling "is often mistaken to mean a separate syllable", although I have never come across this myself.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 01:35, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for that, which should probably go to Chorale. The question above was different, I think: when was the German "Choral" first used to describe a hymn tune? - Stress on tune, because in today's German usage, there's hardly a difference between Choral and Kirchenlied (Wir singen den Choral. Wir singen das Lied.), and it means the complete song, text and melody, not only a tune. Dictionary entries, however, and the one instance I cited above, indicate that at times Choral meant only the tune. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:57, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

You are welcome. I think I may have been misled by the spelling "chorale", which I believe is used in English, but not German (except in the plural, only with ä). However, according to the New Grove article by Marshall and Leaver, the application of the German word Choral to "Lutheran hymns" first occurred in the late 16th century. Marshall and Leaver are not completely clear, however, whether this meant both the melody and the text, or just the melody. Further investigation is indicated.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 17:47, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Bruckner and the Lutheran chorale

@Meneerke bloem: is there any reliable source that can explain what Bruckner thought about the Lutheran chorale, and/or whether he used any of them in his own music? The current Lutheran chorale article is already quite biased for not mentioning the *highly desirable* content on Mendelssohn and the Lutheran chorale (etc.), let's not unbalance it further with extended content on remote topics, please. Tx. --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:50, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

@Francis Schonken: A few examples:

• On p. 701 of C. van Zwol's handbook, by the description of Choral A Dur (WAB 12) – Dir, Herr, dir will ich mich ergeben – you can read: "De invloed van Bruckners leraar Leopold von Zenetti is duidelijk: hij maakte hem bekend met het protestantse koraal."
• On p. 145 of U. Harten's handbook, by the description of Entsagen (WAB 14), you can read: "... die Rahmensätze sind vom protenstantischen Choral beeinflußt, wobei (T. 16-19 und wieder T. 110-113) 'Voll Schmerz, bedeckt mit Hohn' aus dem Choral 'O Haupt voll Blut und Wunden' anklingt. ... Auch in diesem Werk kommt stark die Auseinandersetzung mit der durch Leopold von Zenetti vermittelten Tradition zum Tragen."
  and on p. 211 by the description of In jener letzten der Nächte (WAB 17): "Vielleicht ist dieses von Bruckner im Autograph auch (unvollständig) in d-Moll skizzierte und mit 'Choral' überschriebene Lied im Rahmen der Studien von Leopold von Zenetti entstanden, der seinen Schüler u. a. mit dem evangelischen Kirchenlied bekanntgemacht hat."

--Réginald alias Meneerke bloem (To reply) 13:48, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Not sure how much of this applies to his Masses and symphonies... --Francis Schonken (talk) 14:12, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

The front page of the manuscript of the Messe für den Gründonnerstag is entiteld "Vierstimmige Choral-Messe ohne Kyrie und Gloria für den Gründonnerstag", and in front of the score for the alto soloist of the Windhaager Messe is put "Conc. in Choral" and of the that of the horns "Choral-Messe - Cornu Imo in C". --Réginald alias Meneerke bloem (To reply) 15:06, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

WP:OR: (German) "Choral" does not necessarily mean (English) chorale. See e.g. this article in German about the "Choral" in Austria: not once can the word "Choral" in that article be translated to chorale in English (and even less into Lutheran chorale). --Francis Schonken (talk) 15:26, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Indeed, these early masses are predominantly homophonic in texture, that of the Windhaager Messe is often close to plainchant. They are of course in Latin, not Lutheran. In the next masses, some passages played by the organ, the woodwinds or the brass instruments are of similar structure. The same for some passages mainly by the brass instruments in the symphonies. --Réginald alias Meneerke bloem (To reply) 16:52, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

How about replacing this sentence: "Anton Bruckner used Lutheran chorales, for instance, in his symphonies, masses and motets" by something like "Anton Bruckner, himself a Catholic, became acquainted with Protestant chorales through his teacher Leopold von Zenetti, and adopted a few of them in compositions like Dir, Herr, dir will ich mich ergeben, WAB 12 and Entsagen, WAB 14"?

1. Is that correct, and an improvement of the text in the Lutheran chorale article?
2. If so, what would be the best references for that?

--Francis Schonken (talk) 10:02, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

I would write it as e.g. "Anton Bruckner, himself a Catholic, became acquainted with Protestant chorales through his teacher Leopold von Zenetti, and adopted their form in compositions like Dir, Herr, dir will ich mich ergeben, WAB 12, Entsagen, WAB 14, the chorale of the Festive cantata, WAB 16, and In jener letzten der Nächte, WAB 17" - as supported e.g. on p. 211 of Harten's handbook (description of In jener letzten der Nächte). --Réginald alias Meneerke bloem (To reply) 13:07, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Did Bruckner never adopt a pre-existing hymn tune into his compositions? --Francis Schonken (talk) 14:00, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

So far I know, Bruckner quoted a Lutheran chorale only one time:

• In bars 16-19 (Die treu'ste Mutter groß!) and 110-113 (In heimlicher Gefahr!) of Entsagen, WAB 14 he directly quoted Paul Gerhardt's O Haupt voll Blut und Wunden.

Bruckner used also twice previous Latin tunes:

• In the Sanctus of Mass No. 2 he used a theme from Palestrina's Missa Brevis.
• The Alleluja of Os justi, WAB 30 is a quote of the Alleluja of the introit In medio ecclesiae of the Missa de Doctoribus

--Réginald alias Meneerke bloem (To reply) 18:18, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Allow me a few clarifications:

• Before the article was moved here a few days ago its lead sentence read: "A chorale is a melody to which a hymn is sung by a congregation in a German Protestant Church service." Currently it reads: "A Lutheran chorale is a musical setting of a Lutheran hymn, intended to be sung by a congregation in a German Protestant Church service." The only named chorale in the context of Bruckner that complies to either of these short descriptions is "O Haupt voll Blut und Wunden" appearing in one of his compositions (WAB 14). That, and the fact that Bruckner became acquainted with Protestant chorales through his teacher is afaik all that I can see as fitting in this article (other chorale-related topics regarding Bruckner now fit better in Chorale#19th century).
• Paul Gerhardt wrote the hymn text of "O Haupt voll Blut und Wunden". He had nothing to do with its hymn tune.
• The hymn tune of "O Haupt voll Blut und Wunden" is known under various names, the best known of these are "Herzlich tut mich verlangen" (BWV^2a p. 475) and "Befiehl du deine Wege" ([2]). An unambiguous identification of the tune is Zahn No. 5385a. It was composed by Johann Crüger, after a secular tune by Hans Leo Hassler (which is known as "Mein G'müt ist mir verwirret"). Nonetheless, in popular culture it is perceived as a reference to a composition by Johann Sebastian Bach (mostly for its famous setting as No. 54 in his St Matthew Passion – which is however only one of 15 instances of Bach quoting this tune), see e.g. American Tune#Music.

In sum, apart from his teacher Zenetti, all what ties Bruckner to settings or tunes of hymns "intended to be sung by a congregation in a German Protestant Church service", is exactly the same as what ties Paul Simon (the composer of "American Tune") to melodies of such hymns, i.e. making one of the most recognisable tunes of such hymns fleetingly appear in one of his own compositions. Maybe we could give Bruckner a short sentence in this article (teacher + one composition), and Simon half a sentence. But, to restore balance to the article, we'd still need many more sentences on Mendelssohn and others. Not even speaking about Bach: there are over 500 musical quotes of Lutheran chorale tunes in his compositions: the Bach-Werke-Verzeichnis needs, in its first appendix, eleven pages merely to list all the names of the chorale tunes he quoted with the BWV numbers of the compositions in which they appear. If all of that can be summarized in one paragraph (as it is now in the Lutheran chorale article), we'd need to make sure the rest doesn't unbalance the article because of a greater level of detail. --Francis Schonken (talk) 20:02, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Also, none of this addresses the Mendelssohn (& other composers) vs. Bruckner imbalance. --Francis Schonken (talk) 14:17, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Zahn

FYI

 – Prior discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical music/Archive 64#Roud & Zahn (2 years ago)

To my surprise Johannes Zahn and his system of classifying all tunes/melodies of hymns "sung by a congregation in a German Protestant Church service" are not yet mentioned in this article. --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:00, 26 October 2017 (UTC)