Talk:Mónica González (soccer)

Requested move 6 February 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus, leaning towards not moved. Reasonable arguments on both sides and a slight majority opposed to the move. This is definitely an edge case but also perhaps something that WP:FOOTY should try and establish a firm guideline on because, as pointed out towards the end of the discussion, there are other examples similar to this one. Proposed title created as a redirect. Jenks24 (talk) 09:31, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

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Mónica González (soccer) → Mónica González (footballer) – She represented Mexico where association football is known as football, not as soccer. MonFrontieres (talk) 20:23, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose. She also apparently grew up in the US, played on American university and pro soccer teams, and is now a soccer announcer on ESPN. In the English speaking world she is best known as a soccer player, so I think the current title makes the most sense. --В²C ☎ 00:04, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
  • @Born2cycle: If Wikipedia had existed back in 1998, the only reason why González could have an article here was because of her international debut for Mexico that year. At the time, she wasn't a WUSA player (the former American women's soccer first division) or a soccer announcer on the American version of ESPN (I included "American version" on my text because González doesn't usually appear in e.g. the Brazilian version of ESPN). At the time, she was just a former college soccer player in Indiana, not a enough reason to become a relevant person and then deserve a Wikipedia's own article. In the end, her work throughout her life is exclusively related to association football, and FIFA, the most important governing body of association football in the world, considers González as Mexican, they registered her using her Mexican citizenship (see below my answer to User:In ictu oculi), so she needs to receive the same treatment than the Mexican players, who if you see their articles or in their titles (if there is disambiguation, like in this case) on this same Wiki, they are referred as footballers. That's my point and the reason I request this move. Thank you.--MonFrontieres (talk) 18:54, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
• @MonFrontieres: can you provide a bit more on sources that she represented Mexico not US? There's also the issue of name. En.wikipedia recently removed the accent from Puerto Rican Olympic Gold medalist Mónica Puig's first name (but left the accent on her maternal name, bizarrely). In this case this Mónica is from Texas which is English speaking, wheras Puerto Rico is Spanish speaking. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:30, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Actually no need, Mexico national team player, notability initially in that context Support In ictu oculi (talk) 17:05, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

• • @In ictu oculi: She is registered in FIFA as Mónica Christine González Canales,[1] that full name is from her Mexican citizenship (to play for Mexico) and therefore it has Spanish accents,[2] meanwhile her full name as an American citizenship is Monica Christine Gonzalez (without accents and without her mother's maiden name).[3] Thank you.--MonFrontieres (talk) 18:54, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Thank you In ictu oculi (talk) 19:16, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

• Weak oppose. The term "footballer" is somewhat inaccurate, especially to an American audience. Gonzalez used to be a "footballer." She is now a sportscaster and runs a foundation to teach kids "football" or "soccer" (as you prefer). Thus, it seems to me that "soccer" is the broader and more accurate term to describe her.
• A problem is that Wikipedia eons ago decided to call the sport "Association football." Actually, it would be more accurate to call soccer, "football" and to call American football, "American football." The great majority of the world's population uses that terminology. If we did that we would title this article "Monica Gonzalez (football)" -- and that would make sense. Smallchief (talk 00:49, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
  • @Smallchief: Remember that Wikipedia audience is not just American audience, but a world audience. Obviously, if you are an English-speaking person from the United States (or Australia, Canada...), you will consider any association footballer from anywhere in the world as a "soccer player". And if this Mónica González was even born and raised in the United States and one of her citizenship is American, then her article's title on Wikipedia seems to be definitely "Monica Gonzalez (soccer player)"¹… if she had not represented Mexico. But she did it and officially, having played two editions of the FIFA Women's World Cup. FIFA is the top body of association football and they considers her as Mexican (not American, therefore "football" and not "soccer"), so she needs to receive here on Wikipedia the same treatment that her compatriots Andrés Guardado, Hugo Sánchez, Maribel Domínguez, etc. receive, who are referred here as footballers, not as soccer players. Thank you.--MonFrontieres (talk) 20:11, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
    Note. ¹: Call her "Monica Gonzalez (soccer)" is wrong. She is not the sport, but a player of that sport. Is Lebron James a basketball? or is he a basketball player?--MonFrontieres (talk) 20:11, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose. The naming conventions for athletes is WP:NCSP, and according to this "(soccer)" is correct: "If the person is American, Canadian, or Australian, use (soccer)". Gonzalez is American, born in Texas; she represented Mexico based on her heritage, not her nationality.--Cúchullain ^t/c 21:00, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
  • @Cuchullain: She has dual citizenship Mexican-American. "Under a recent law, people with a parent born in Mexico can claim Mexican nationality"[4] She is Mónica Christine Gónzalez Canales as a Mexican citizen and Monica Christine Gonzalez as an American citizen. See my previous comments. Thank you--MonFrontieres (talk) 22:50, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

It doesn't change the point of the guideline, or the fact that she is and always has been American.--Cúchullain ^t/c 23:11, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Frédéric Kanouté (born and raised in France) is described as a Malian, Ricardo (footballer, born 1980) (born and raised in Portugal) is described as a Cape Verdean, Hachim Mastour (born and raised in Italy) is describes as a Moroccan. What's the difference between them and González? They are the same cases.--MonFrontieres (talk) 23:18, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

@Cuchullain: Why is Juan Agudelo described as a "soccer player" if he was born in Colombia (where he lived until age 7) to Colombian parents? Maybe because he opted to represent the United States instead of Colombia. Well, by the same reason González should be referred as a footballer, because she represented Mexico, FIFA recognizes her as Mexican, and she has Mexican nationality (apart of American).--MonFrontieres (talk) 23:37, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Timothy Chandler (born and raised in Germany) the same. "Timothy Chandler (born March 29, 1990) is an American soccer player who plays as a right back for Eintracht Frankfurt in the Bundesliga."--MonFrontieres (talk) 23:44, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Timothy Chandler looks like he could go either way; Juan Agudelo is American and has spent his entire career and period of notability in the U.S. The others don't have a bearing on this discussion as it wouldn't change how "football" is referred to in the article. A big part of the problem with using "footballer" for American and Canadian players is that the term is confusing and/or unrecognizable to readers due to the ambiguity over the term "football" in those areas. "Soccer" is unambiguous and easily recognizable for all readers regardless of nationality. It's better to err on the side of the unambiguous.--Cúchullain ^t/c 03:06, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.