Talk:Monica Puig

Not the first Porto Rican Gold Medalist

Gigi Fernandez was the first Porto Rican Gold Medalist. Monica however, was the first to win gold while representing however. Gigi may not have represented Porto Rico, but she was still the first Porto Rican who won gold. Fimbulvintur (talk) 23:21, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

As far as the IOC is concerned, Fernández is not Puerto Rican or even Latin American. And their standards are the ones that determine historical "firsts". Such is the price of selling out. 00:14, 14 August 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.77.216.50 (talk)

My understanding of the episode is this;

Gigi is a doubles player and, therefore, needed a player to partner with in order to enter the event on behalf of Puerto Rico. As far as I can recall, at the time (the 1990s) there were no other Puerto Rican players of anything like the required standard, so it wasn't an option for her to represent Puerto Rico as a doubles player.

So it wasn't a case of selling out, so much as taking the only opportunity that was open to her at all. Meltingpot (talk) 13:43, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

She had competed in singles at previous tournaments but was mediocre at best, so she just wanted the easy way in and selling out was it. Not that it is relevant at all to Puig, since she won in a different event and did not need a crutch to support her weight on. 107.77.216.210 (talk) 13:51, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Well regardless, the fact was corrected... ; ) Fimbulvintur (talk) 03:53, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Olympic finals and WTA Tour counting

@Labsjoao: Hi, are you sure that OG are not counting as WTA finals? Firstly, Olympic Games are part of WTA Tour, and secondly e.g. look at Serena Williams WTA Finals, there are 4 OG final matches (1+3). She has 71 singles and 23 doubles WTA titles including 1 S from OG (44th) and 3 D from OG (7th, 13th, 22nd). Cheers--Kacir 05:06, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

They count as WTA finals just like the four Majors do. They are not WTA tournaments but they are part of the WTA schedule. We include them just as we do the Majors. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:08, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes, it's a part of ATP/WTA Circuit organized by ITF (+ IOC).--Kacir 06:21, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Medal History should automatically show

Why is it hidden? Under her career stats. Winning the Olympic Gold Medal should be detailed and shown, one shouldn't have to click "show" to see such an important feat.

UPDATE!!!

I still don't understand how this is still an issue that has yet to be resolved.

1) I'm not one to cast judgement on one's editing ability but if one makes such a big fuss about something, one must be willing to find the solution themselves before calling on other users' knowledge.
2) All that was necessary was for medaltemplates-expand = yes to be added above the medals and Voila! P.S. please sign you comments on here so we know who we are talking to. --F1lover22 talk 22:40, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Spelling

As an fyi, per her personal website sources, she spells her name Monica in English. I believe her signature shows this also. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:43, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

I'd have to agree. Anywhere I can see it is spelled 'Monica', besides here on Wikipedia of course. Examples:

• ITF Profile
• Juniors Profile
• WTA Website – not always the best source however
• Tennis Explorer
• Core Tennis
• Aus Open Profile
• RG Profile
• Wimbledon Profile
• USO Profile
• Facebook
• Instagram
• Twitter

Maybe a look at a page move is in order? --F1lover22 talk 22:35, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

User:F1lover22 Hi, maybe please read the history at WP:TENNISNAMES and WP:TENNISNAMES2, also note that sports websites with incomplete fonts are not considered "reliable sources" for fonts, accents and Spanish names per WP:RS. Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:19, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

The WTA website is not one with 'incomplete fonts', which is arguably the most important as it is the name Puig gave when she became a pro player. The issue is one which stretches beyond the confines of tennis articles. Please see Celine Dion and Jennifer Lopez as examples. Also please stop being so defensive when it comes to a discussion about a page move occurring. Whatever has gone on at discussion pages does not mean that a separate discussion/page move request can occur. You must allow both sides to make points and not just shut down anything that you don't agree with. --F1lover22 talk 11:52, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

The WTA website doesn't use diacritics in most of the names that should have diacritics. This move is done but I oppose the use of the WTA website as a "reliable source" for this. The ITF website is even worse, and most newspapers in English omit diacritics for every name out there. -- Rubyaxles (talk) 15:13, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

@Rubyaxles: I agree. People need to start realising that the Latin script has more than 26 characters. Rovingrobert (talk) 08:14, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

However the English alphabet usually only has 26 letters. Fyunck(click) (talk) 11:21, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

The key word being usually. Rovingrobert (talk) 08:16, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Date format

@F1lover22: Most of the articles about Puerto Rican athletes uses the mdy format for example José Juan Barea. Why are you changing the format to dmy? Seriesphile (talk · ctb) 12:26, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

Because the article is under a much wider scope than Puerto Rico, it is a tennis article. The guidelines for tennis articles call for a DMY format (Although some articles which are written in US English e.g. Serena Williams will probably remain in MDY to avoid edit conflicting). See Elina Svitolina, Teliana Pereira and Garbiñe Muguruza for examples. If you have an issue with that there is no point in having a discussion here, it needs to start somewhere higher up. I am not reverting the edits any further because I do not want to get involved in a pointless edit conflicting. But I would also ask you not to continue to change it. --F1lover22 talk 12:32, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

@F1lover22: You were the one that asked for a discussion here and now you don't want to discuss this? And I'm the one that is asking you to stop changing the date format to dmy. Seriesphile (talk · ctb) 12:40, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

I am not saying that I don't want a discussion but there is really nothing more that I can say here. I have stated the way it should be because it is a tennis article, what else am I supposed to say? And the date format is staying as dmy. I am asking you to leave it as so. If you had actually read what I said, you would know that I said that the discussion would need to happen some where higher up i.e. a WikiProject page, or a formatting page. I never said that I didn't want a discussion. Then again editors on here have a tendency to only read the parts that they want. --F1lover22 talk 12:47, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

First of all, stop with your personal attacks. Second, the community chooses the article to stay at the dmy format not you. I read all what you wrote there and you're contradicting yourself. Seriesphile (talk · ctb) 13:03, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

No personal attack, just passing a comment about editors in general. But I am intrigued to find out how I contradicted myself, do explain. --F1lover22 talk 14:22, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

See it by yourself, I don't need to explain anything to you. This is the last time I'm replying to you. Do whatever you want with the article. Seriesphile (talk · ctb) 23:10, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

I would but there is no contradiction in what I said. And I am not doing what I want with the article, I am applying the correct format to the article. Nothing wrong with that. We would all appreciate if you took you snide comments and unsupported arguments elsewhere. Muchas gracias. F1lover22 talk 00:20, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Requested move September 12, 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move. This move discussion left much to consider, but there's an apparent consensus, grounded in policy and practice, to remove the accent from the name "Monica". In closing, I gave less consideration to arguments saying that Puerto Rican articles must use accents, as this has no policy basis. I also gave somewhat less consideration to supporting arguments based on raw assessment of English sources; in these types of RMs, it's clear that many sources don't use accents based on their internal style guidelines, and therefore aren't good gauges of what's truly common. For that, we need to look more closely at sources that do use accents for other names.
As noted, two lengthy RfCs, WP:TENNISNAMES and WP:TENNISNAMES2, have taken on the issue of accents in tennis players' names. These found consensus that diacritics are generally preferable where appropriate. However, they did not find that diacritics must be used regardless of other considerations, and there are various examples to that effect. WP:COMMONNAME and the subject's preference per MOS:IDENTITY must be taken into account.
It was argued that there both is, and is not, consistency to use the diacritic among relevant sources. However, the evidence appears equivocal. The New York Times was mentioned several times as a source that uses the diacritic in "Mónica Puig". However, a closer look shows that this paper does not always include the accent."Monica Puig" Additionally, it was demonstrated that various other English-language sources do not use the accent. Given the inconsistency, MOS:IDENTITY seems to carry the most weight: When there is a discrepancy between the term most commonly used by reliable sources for a person or group and the term that person or group uses for themselves, use the term that is most commonly used by reliable sources; if it isn't clear which is most used, use the term that the person or group uses. As was pointed out, Monica Puig does not use the accent on her own personal sites, and this fact was never effectively countered. As such, the consensus to move the article prevails.--Cúchullain ^t/c 21:42, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

---

Mónica Puig → Monica Puig – As discussed above, this appears to be the spelling she uses in English, whether it's her personal instagram, twitter, or facebook accounts (all places that can use the ó if the person wishes). Not to mention the ITF, WTA, Wimbledon, US Open, etc. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:48, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Support - As I pointed out above, here seems to be the only place spelling her name with the 'ó'. Don't see any major reason why anybody would oppose this. --F1lover22 talk 20:26, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
• Support - (nominator). As explained and sourced by F1lover22 above. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:39, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

WP:TENNISNAMES and WP:TENNISNAMES2 settled this issue to the death. Fyunck, please drop it. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:15, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose - She was born in Puerto Rico not in the United States, if she were born in the United States her name would be "Monica" like Jennifer Lopez's surname that is supposed to be "López" instead of "Lopez". Mónica spells his name as "Monica" because she was raised in the U.S. most of her life. Seriesphile (talk · ctb) 23:07, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

  See Discussion below. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:41, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose, current title isn't less WP:CONCISE than the alternative. Also WP:CONSISTENCY with other articles on Puerto Rican people.--Prisencolin (talk) 04:22, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

  But it's not consistent with how she herself spells her own name in sources. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:53, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

  WP:CONSISTENCY is relates to other article titles. As for how she spells her name, is this actually her own spelling, or just something done by the media? In any case a quick google search suggests that the spelling without the accent is not as predominant as suggested, and the spelling with the accent mark is ised by outlets like the New York Times.--Prisencolin (talk) 17:11, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

  See discussion below. Her own choice of spelling. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:38, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

  • I don't think MOS:IDENTITY should apply to something as trivial as diacritics to be honest. Whatever the WP:COMMONNAME is is what the title should be.--Prisencolin (talk) 18:17, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

    Then per COMMONNAME are you changing your mind on this? Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:06, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

• Support. WP:COMMONAME and WP:TRANSLITERATE. It appears that most reliable sources in English do not use the accent mark. She also officially does not use it herself. This would be consistent with the current consensus of the Jennifer Lopez and Celine Dion articles. Furthermore, if it is true that "here seems to be the only place spelling her name" with the accent, then it violates that very first sentence of WP:NAMINGCRITERIA: "Article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject". Zzyzx11 (talk) 05:45, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose - Wikipedia uses Puerto Rican names for all Puerto Rican BLPs. @Zzyzx11: the nom has failed to mention high-MOS sources which do: as per **reliable for purpose** quality sources which can take Spanish names, such as New York Times, "Mónica Puig" : But once there, Wiley, a 53-year-old community coordinator for Representative Nydia M. Velázquez of New York, saw two men playing and realized his mistake. “I looked it up on Google Maps and realized there is a new Grandstand,” Wiley said Monday. “I had to run over there. And then later I had to run back to see Mónica Puig play in the old Grandstand.”. No need to single this Puerto Rican athlete out for dehispanization. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:13, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

You do realise that many of these so called 'reliable sources' use Wikipedia as a main point of research. The fact that her WTA and ITF profiles as well as her player profile on the official website of all for Slams is not a coincidence. Even more importantly, her social media shows her personal preference. I'm sure if she was having a problem with finding the 'ó' character on the keyboard she would have plenty of people to help her. --F1lover22 talk 11:43, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Did you read the RfCs? In ictu oculi (talk) 17:10, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Relevance questionable. F1lover22 talk 17:34, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

• Support - I thought we liked letting people decide their own names. Red Slash 18:52, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

"Mónica" is her name. English sources use "Mónica" not "Monica". (1, 2, 3, 4, 5) Seriesphile (talk · ctb) 07:27, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

And at least explain why you support this. Seriesphile (talk · ctb) 07:29, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

False, "Some" English sources use Mónica. As explained above, many use Monica: ITF Profile, Juniors Profile, WTA Website, Tennis Explorer,Core Tennis, Aus Open Profile, RG Profile, Wimbledon Profile, Los Angeles Times, Miami Herald (where she lives), UK Daily Mail, Rio 2016, NBC Olympics, Reuters News, and her USO Profile. Not to mention very importantly her own personal websites: Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. So this English stuff you keep posting doesn't fly in the face of the truth. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:36, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Personal websites aren't a reliable source and Miami Herald doesn't even put the "ñ" in "La Borinqueña" in that news article. Many websites in English, Spanish and other languages use "Mónica". Seriesphile (talk · ctb) 13:17, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Same old argument from Fyunck, crap [edit: low-MOS] sources uses crap fonts, and there's more crap than reliable sources out there so we'll follow crap. But WP:RS clearly says don't follow crap. In ictu oculi (talk) 20:35, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

And the same old falsehoods being spread like manure by IIO. Don't you get tired of making things personal and attacking me? Weren't you warned in the past to knock it off and stay on point? You've only done it a hundred times. I'll have to check and see if you've crossed another line and need to be warned again by administrators. You just can't seem to resist making it personal when your own arguments are being trashed. Knock it off pronto and stay on point. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:43, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Are you objecting to the word crap for low-MOS tabloid and website fonts? If it offends you I can strike all the uses of the word. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:13, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

• Support. Linguistic national pride is perfectly understandable, as in the case of those who insist that Bela Lugosi should have the main title header Béla Lugosi (Talk:Bela Lugosi#Béla or Bela?) or the case of Andrei Șerban who is an American citizen and uses the professional name Andrei Serban. Also instructive may be the discussions and votes at Talk:Malin Åkerman#Requested move (2007), Talk:Malin Åkerman#Åkerman and Talk:Malin Åkerman#Proposed Move (2010) and there are a number of other such examples (Joanna Pacuła, Rade Šerbedžija, etc.) In this case, however, personal use, such as Facebook or Twitter is the overriding factor. If Monica Puig felt that it was a key element of self-esteem in her ethnic and linguistic heritage, she would certainly have been using the accent in her public postings. In the absence of any specific comment on this subject, we should accept her preference on the basis of her written word. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 17:27, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

@Roman Spinner: what nationality is the BLP and what flag did she win Olympic gold under? In ictu oculi (talk) 20:37, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

I assume the question is about the nationality of Monica Puig, rather than that of the WP:BLP. No one is denying her birthplace or the flag under which she won the gold. The central point here is individual identity and the personal choice and manner of expressing such identity. Each name discussion should be based upon the specific circumstances of the person in question, rather than one-size-fits-all proposal exemplified under WP:TENNISNAMES. Those, such as Beyoncé, who use diacritics as part of their public and private persona, should be so referenced. Those who do not, such as Monica Puig, should be given the respect of making their own choice. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 21:08, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

@Roman Spinner:, no absolutely not. Sorry but evidence please? Since when do we ignore the nationality of biographies? You cited a number of Americans, fine, but you are not "respect"ing either Wikipedia MOS or her nationality by citing the examples of American nationals to remove Spanish pronunciation from Mónica Puig, Puerto Rico’s Favorite Daughter (and Only Gold Medalist). With the accent gone the name suddenly would be pronounced like English "Monica", but it isn't is it. What was the point of citing Americans? Please cite examples of fellow Puerto Ricans or other Spanish speaking nationals. In ictu oculi (talk) 21:13, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

A number of foreign-born biographical subjects have gained notability under their Anglicized given names and/or surnames and we note that fact within the lead sentence (an example would be: Monica Puig, born Mónica Puig). This practice also includes native-born American citizens, such as Beyoncé, with roots in cultures that use diacritics. All the others I've mentioned earlier were born outside the U.S., including Malin Akerman, who was moved from Sweden to Canada at the age of two and has not been billed or referenced in the English-speaking world as "Åkerman". Just as there are Anglophones who may have been born and spent their entire lives in Puerto Rico, so there are Puerto Ricans (not including Monica Puig) who were born and spent their entire lives on the U.S. mainland. Those who have always lived on the mainland may choose to use an accented name (such as José) or they may choose to write it without an accent, assuming that the pronunciation is generally known (Wikipedia has separate entries for Jose and José). Just as we reject the total exclusion of diacritics for tennis player names, per WP:TENNISNAMES proposal, so should we reject the automatic inclusion of accents for all Spanish-heritage names which have traditionally used such accents. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 22:08, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

@Roman Spinner: I am sorry to repeat the question: but do you understand the difference between a citizen of USA and the citizen of another country? Why are you a second time citing examples of Americans when this BLP is about a citizen of another country with another language? We have a corpus of 5.2 million articles on en.wp. Of these all 5.2 million include Spanish accents where needed. Of these 5.2 million all also include accents in titles where needed; specifically all non-US/UK/Canada/Australia nationals have their full name spelled correctly and fully according to the MOS used by en.wp which includes Spanish accents. That includes all BLPs irrespective of checking low-MOS sources like Twitter. This is en.wp practice. Please see Category:Puerto Rican sportswomen, or indeed Category:Polish sportswomen or Category:Czech sportswomen. Use of full font spelling is at 100% here. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:13, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Since I apparently did not indicate with sufficient clarity the national origins of those I mentioned earlier, I will be more specific — other than Beyoncé who, akin to Monica Puig, was born a U.S. citizen, all others arrived in the U.S. as citizens of other countries. Some, such as [Béla] Bela Lugosi or Andrei Serban [Șerban], became American citizens, others, such as Rade Šerbedžija (who is billed as Rade Sherbedgia in English-language cinema) did not. Although a number of celebrities and other notables (whose origins are in linguistic regions which use diacritics, but whose primary or frequent residences are in the English-speaking world) have made the public decision to dispense with the use of diacritics, those who are not necessarily linguistic nationalists, but simply retain pride in the specifics of those cultures, insist upon forcing diacritics onto all names where such diacritics would have been used in the subjects' country of origin. Those in Category:Puerto Rican sportswomen, or Category:Polish sportswomen who continue to use diacritics in their names (as a display of their public persona) have demonstrated their preferences. So has Monica Puig who, while not hiding her ethnic origin, has decided not to stress it in the appearance of her name. Her choice should be respected. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 16:10, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

@Roman Spinner: she is not American. Why are you for the third time going on about Americans? Accurate names for citizens of Spanish-speaking nations is en.wp practice. Please see Category:Puerto Rican people. As I said, use of full font spelling is at 100% here. Why do you want to make this Puerto Rican citizen the single exception to en.wp practice? In ictu oculi (talk) 16:58, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

There seems to be another misunderstanding and it does not appear to be mine. You wrote (two paragraphs earlier) that "this BLP is about a citizen of another country with another language". While Puerto Rico does have limited international recognition (see Puerto Rican citizenship), it does not conduct international relations, sign treaties with other nations or issue its own currency. All those born in Puerto Rico automatically become U.S. citizens and are, therefore, Americans by definition. The U.S. is a melting pot of ethnic identities and a majority of Americans indicate a connection with lands of their known ancestors. I have been mentioning Beyoncé because she is a notable example of one who chooses to use a diacritic, but does not proclaim herself as being Acadian, rather than American, in the same manner as Monica Puig has not discarded her American identity or citizenship (she lives in Miami and uses English as the language of her day-to-day activities, as evidenced by her public profile on social media). According to WP:WikiProject Puerto Rico/Style guide#Usage and style, diacritics should be used for "biographies of persons who use them when spelling their name". Monica Puig does not use them when spelling her name. It cannot be any clearer. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 18:38, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

You've changed your argument from citing Americans, to denying that Puerto Rico is a country? As to that project guideline as you can see that clearly refers to American Puerto Ricans, see scope. And it's a badly edited, dormant, local guideline which is at odds with Wikipedia reality. as per Category:Puerto Rican sportswomen. We still haven't got a reason why Puerto Rico's only Olympic gold medal winner should be made an exception to the rest of en.Wikipedia? In ictu oculi (talk) 07:18, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

The consistent misunderstanding has still not been resolved. The sole native-born American I have cited is Beyoncé, because of her use of the accent mark. All the others I've mentioned, some of whom subsequently became U.S. (or Canadian) citizens, are foreign-born. As for my failure to "understand the difference between a citizen of USA and the citizen of another country" or that "she is not American", I am mystified by your apparent refusal to accept her status as a U.S. citizen. No one is questioning her publicized description as "Puerto Rico’s Favorite Daughter (and Only Gold Medalist)" or that she won the medal under the flag of her native territory of Puerto Rico. However, as has been pointed out, she is not "Puerto Rico's only Olympic gold medal winner", since native-born Gigi Fernandez won two gold medals [1992 and 1996] under the U.S. flag (she now lives in Connecticut and also writes her name without an accent). Finally, as to my "denying that Puerto Rico is a country", I must point to Political status of Puerto Rico which explains in the lead paragraph that "Puerto Rico is an unincorporated territory of the United States". Solid facts are not subject to denial. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 10:13, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

• Support seeing that it's the form she uses. Calidum ¤ 05:41, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
• Strong support per Roman Spinner's accurate analysis above, and per MOS:IDENTITY, as she spells her own name "Monica", and we are not supposed to override that with our personal preferences. Cavarrone 21:30, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

• @Seriesphile: So even you admit she spells her name Monica because she was raised in the US. That's what we're talking about for her most common spelling sourced title and what the person who closes this will be looking for. Remember this is the title. The first line, her birthname, would remain Mónica Puig Marchán. But we go by English sourcing here whenever possible and the athlete herself spells it Monica. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:33, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

  @Fyunck(click): She spells his name as "Monica" but it's supposed to be "Mónica". Mónica spells his name as "Monica" because she has trouble speaking spanish. Seriesphile (talk · ctb) 23:48, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

  All we care about is how she spells her name in English and what English sources use. We have to use sources. She spells it Monica. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:34, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

  Well, if that's what you want... 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Seriesphile (talk · ctb) 23:10, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

• @F1lover22: On relevance: The thing is, as you pointed out in your sourcing, there is probably nothing more relevant than the fact she spells her own name "Monica." That's the type of source Wikipedia usually goes by. We have to be careful that some sources are foreign and may ignore English and spell it any which way they can. We also have to be careful that some English sources may not have the ability to produce foreign letters so that would be unfair if she really wanted to spell it Mónica but couldn't. Luckily, thanks to your diligence, we do have examples of her preferred spelling in English, "Monica." Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:53, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

  @Fyunck(click): It seems as if there are two conflicting communities coming together on this one, the tennis community and the Puerto Rican community. I can understand where they are coming from but I couldn't agree more with you when it comes to naming the page as per her preferred spelling "Monica". At the same time I must admit that the profiles from the Grand Slam websites are irrelevant as none they do no include accents on any player (e.g. Alize Cornet rather than Alizé Cornet). I think a definitive answer could take a while to come by here. F1lover22 talk 21:20, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

  This is true. However in past RfC's it was also made quite clear that a player's preference in English makes all the world of difference. That is what has happened with people like Ana Ivanovic and Novak Djokovic and Martina Navratilova... They prefer the English variation per sources. It looks the same here with Monica Puig and that's extremely important. Sure I realize that many Puerto-Ricans want to spell it Mónica, she's famous now and they have a lot of national pride. I'm cool with that but it doesn't change the fact that she spells it Monica. This is an English encyclopaedia and her preferred way of spelling it is Monica. Remember that administrators don't count hands, they look at the best reasons for keeping or moving. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:41, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

  You don't need tell me, we're on the same wavelength :D National pride definitely needs to be overlooked, as from what I can see the opposers seem to all be coming from the Puerto Rican side rather than the tennis side. Hopefully it wont be too big a deal. F1lover22 talk 22:40, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

  @Fyunck(click): You know Mónica personally to say she prefers to spell her name as "Monica"? Seriesphile (talk · ctb) 22:56, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

  Maybe I do :-) but we couldn't use that even if true. I really don't care what way she chooses to spell her own name, but Wikipedia goes by sourcing, in particular, her own websites where she can spell it anyway she wishes and chooses to spell it Monica. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:07, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

This really is nonsense. You would have to know a person personally to be able to state that they want to be the only Puerto Rican athlete on Wikipedia who is so ashamed of being hispanic that she wants to be spelled differently from all other Puerto Rican athletes on Wikipedia. Evidence such as a letter from the BLP to the New York Times complaining about the New York Times MOS being followed and treating her as other citizens of her country. The issue here is the same old disruptive nonsense as WP:TENNISNAMES and WP:TENNISNAMES2, nothing to do with the BLP's feelings about her nationality. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:23, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

@In ictu oculi: How you think that this is an issue of Monica Puig being "so ashamed of being Hispanic that she wants to be spelled differently from all other Puerto Rican athletes on Wikipedia" is beyond me. Not every Puerto Rican athlete is named Monica, and even fewer decide to spell their name without the accent. Just from a quick look at athletes who competed at the 2016 Games your argument about all Puerto Rican athletes falls apart. For example, the article on table tennis player Adriana Díaz is titled without the accent. She also spells her name as 'Diaz" on all her social media profiles. Why is Puig any different? You've provided one article from the New York Times where her name is spelled with an accent. If you are going to put up such a strong counter argument you really need to support it more definitively. Anyway, this is not a case of quote-unquote removing the Puerto Rico from Monica Puig, it is just a matter of having the title of an English language encyclopaedia corresponding with her preferred way of spelling. F1lover22 talk 13:27, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

Because of WP:CONSISTENCY. If you want to take issue with en.wikipedia's MOS you can find 1000s of non-WP:RS sources where someone hasn't put on their Twitter feed the same name per full en.wikipedia MOS, so the claim (above) that the BLP wants to have her name's accent removed, needs to be set in consistency - where's the evidence that this BLP wants to be singled out here? Or singled out in the New York Times (which has the same MOS Spanish as en.wp)? You haven't made that case. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:41, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

And btw New York Times is an English language newspaper, putting "English" there doesn't change the fact that this article is simply following reliable for purpose (the definition at WP:RS) English sources :) Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:44, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

And BTW that is only ONE English source on ONE occasion. Not a whole procession to base your arguement on. It's really weak as per usual. 80.42.90.47 (talk) 21:55, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Sorry who is this speaking? Please sign in. New York Times is not the only English language source with high MOS equivalent to Wikipedia MOS. See WP:RS we take the best sources for purpose, not the worst. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:14, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

It is very much within the realm of possbility that she only spels her name without an accent because due to pressure from the various tennis organizations. If this is indeed the case than we should be wary of WP:SYSTEMATICBIAS from sources that aren't WP:NPOV--Prisencolin (talk) 18:53, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Name

So now Wikipedia likes to change the spelling of the name of the people? Seriesphile (talk · ctb) 22:04, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

You still have not provided any substantial evidence supporting the spelling with the accent. F1lover22 talk 10:27, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

Seriesphile, I stand by my lengthy closing summary, but am available to discuss the matter further if you like.--Cúchullain ^t/c 17:01, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

@F1lover22: You want me to steal her birth certificate to prove you her name spelling is Mónica? I already provided you with sources where they spell his name as Mónica but you keep ignoring the fact that his name spelling is Mónica and not Monica. Please stop changing her name spelling only because you want it. Seriesphile (talk · ctb) 13:53, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

By "sources", you mean one single source from a news article. I'm not going to keep arguing with some one who cannot provide counter arguments to the points that both I and other contributors made throughout the discussion. You must be pretty naïve to think that the only reason the article name was changed was because of my personal desire for it to be a certain way. F1lover22 talk 22:07, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

Stop lying please, I gave you like eight or nine different sources and yes it was your personal desire you can't deny it wasn't. Seriesphile (talk · ctb) 06:00, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

@Cuchullain: your lengthy closing summary was wrong-headed and I believe you should submit for review. You have just gone against New York Times and WP:RS sources following original research based on a Twitter account. No amount of original research into the motivation of the BLP's twitter account justifies making Puerto Rico's only Olympic gold winner the only Puerto Rican, in fact the only Latin American bio, at odds with Wikipedia MOS on the rest of the BLP corpus. The original research should have showed that the BLP wanted to be singled out, that the BLP felt strongly. As it is it is you who have singled her out with this implementation of a clearly highly controversial and disruptive move. Let's be clear the only reason for this move proposal is that the BLP plays tennis. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:43, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

I stand by what I said, so I'm not going to start a move review myself. On the New York Times, examples were shown of that paper using the accent, but other examples were given of other high-quality English sources that don't use it. Indeed, the NYT itself doesn't always accent her name. As such, "it isn't clear which is most used" in the sources. In those cases, more weight falls on the subject's own preference. A person's own pages are usually a good indicator of how they prefer to write their own name - at least, in Puig's case there's no evidence at all suggesting that she prefers the accent. As for Puig being "singled out", there are many examples of people whose names could be accented that aren't accented on Wikipedia for reasons similar to this. That's a dead end argument.--Cúchullain ^t/c 14:40, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

That's not correct. There was 1, now there are 2. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:34, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

The RM noted several examples of bios that could use an accent but don't, and others are easily found. But regardless, it doesn't obviate the WP:COMMONNAME and MOS:IDENTITY issues.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:03, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Not to mention even the NY Times can't make up it's mind. Puig’s Popularity Reflects Growing Hispanic Interest and Venus Williams Beats Back a Challenge From a Plucky American Compatriot and Stars Take a Beating on a Topsy-Turvy Day, the last with João Souza's name right above hers. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:22, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

I think this has gone about as far as it's going to here. Move review is available for those who think the close was off the mark in terms of gauging policy and consensus. There's also the option of opening another RM at a later date and trying to achieve a new consensus.--Cúchullain ^t/c 21:51, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

January 2017

@Fyunck(click): This list of sources is terrible. The WTA website doesn't use diacritics in most of the names that should have diacritics. This move is done but I oppose the use of the WTA website as a "reliable source" for this. The ITF website is even worse, and most newspapers in English omit diacritics for every name out there. If these should be used as a basis for determining whether or not we should diacritics, then we better start stripping them from every tennis player on Wikipedia. -- Rubyaxles (talk) 15:20, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

@Rubyaxles: exactly as you say, and as many other editors have repeatedly said. There were two widely attended RFCs WP:TENNISNAMES and WP:TENNISNAMES2 which already decided that Tennis players should not be singled out for removing diacritics based on html and tabloid sources which never have diacritics for anyone. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:19, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 19 August 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. (non-admin closure) Vpab15 (talk) 17:53, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

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Monica Puig → Mónica Puig – This page was previously moved based on the conclusion that "Monica Puig does not use the accent on her own personal sites, and this fact was never effectively countered. As such, the consensus to move the article prevails." However, she now uses the accent on ther personal sites such as Twitter and Instagram, so the correct name must be reinstated per MOS:IDENTITY. Neodop (talk) 15:20, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

However she is not using it on her verified personal facebook page, nor in her twitter advertising. So she's a mixed bag. But you are correct that in the past she did not use it anywhere. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:55, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

What bothers me the most is that the article even states that Mónica somehow changed her name: "Mónica (later Monica) Puig Marchán was born...". This is both unsourced and factually incorrect, violating WP:BLP. Are you suggesting that her real name, according to that stylized logo, is all lowercase without spaces or diacritics and that we should also write her name thus? Here she writes her name with the diacritics and the logo without, so the logo seems to be purely artistic. Neodop (talk) 22:43, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Agreed on that point. I have no idea who slipped that line in there but I just removed it since there is no proof that is the case. Actually she has written her name without diacritics, and signs it without diacritics. Originally all English sources, including hers, always spelled it Monica. You have now pointed out that two of her personal sources now have Mónica in the header. No question that is a change from before. I notice that whoever maintains the instagram does so in spanish. It says Mónica Puig, Boricua PR, Tenista profesional, Juegos Olímpicos Rio 2016. Do we also start using Olímpicos on wikipedia? Her twitter site uses the exact same format and spelling and almost all tweets are in spanish, not english. She must have someone new maintaining her twitter/instagram accounts as they spell committee as comité. That's not English. There is a lot to consider here. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:58, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

• Comment. An example may be taken from the recent Talk:Vasyl Ivanchuk#Requested move 18 April 2020 where Ukrainian chess Grandmaster Vasyl Ivanchuk nominated the main title header of his English Wikipedia entry for move from its Russian transliteration, Vassily Ivanchuk, to its Ukrainian transliteration, Vasyl Ivanchuk. The nomination was accompanied by a request to FIDE for the same change in its official records. Both requests were successfully completed. Similarly, it should be relatively simple to contact Monica/Mónica Puig for a statement of personal preference regarding her English Wikipedia page as well as the various databases in which her name appears. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 04:07, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
• Support should never have been moved in the first place. Standard MOS. The language of Puerto Rico is Spanish and Wikipedia does not have separate rules for MOS of tennis players. All Puerto Rico bios and geos are treated same as any other Spanish-speaking country. This is another disruptive relic from TENNISNAMES and TENNISNAMES2 and should go back to ANI if any tennis editor wants to go to TENNISNNAMES3. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:45, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose Nothing has changed since the comprehensive close of the previous RM. Andrewa (talk) 10:09, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
• Support + Comment - Her social media uses a mixture of "Mónica" and "Monica" to me it depends on whether you want to go by English sources or Puerto Rican ones, as the English news sites like ESPN and NBC etc, use it without the accent on top, though I'm not sure if they're known to use accents on other players like Tomáš Berdych or Karolína Plíšková. The Puerto Rican sources however use it with the accent. YellowStahh (talk) 12:46, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
  • When I followed your Google search link, the first hit I got was https://www.elnuevodia.com/deportes/tenis/notas/monica-puig-encontrara-fuerte-competencia-en-el-us-open-pese-a-todas-las-bajas/ which is in Spanish. We use only English sources in choosing article names unless these are too rare to be useful, which isn't the case here. Andrewa (talk) 15:08, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per Andrewa and WP:UE. -- Calidum 15:40, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per Andrewa and Calidum. Puerto Rico is U.S. territory and a number of its natives and residents are English speakers. Although she was born in and competed for Puerto Rico, Monica Puig resides in Chicago and is generally referenced in the English-speaking world without the accent. I would change my vote if she were to contact Wikipedia and request that her name be accented. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 05:53, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

first line = accent missing on first name, included on matronymic?

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Monica_Puig&type=revision&diff=973892913&oldid=973849308 - this edit, and would need to check edit history but appears to have been persistently added into the article first line presents something bizarre. The first Spanish name with accent erased and then the matronymic, Marchán, correctly spelled? What is this, Spanglish? An Anglo-Saxonised first name, and a Puerto Rican matronymic, complete with "á". Can anyone find any other example in en.wp of this? Or a reliable (or even unreliable) source to justify this mish-mash? In ictu oculi (talk) 18:11, 20 August 2020 (UTC)