Talk:Münchener Post

Important new details about the courageous journalists of a German newspaper who tried to thwart Hitler

Greetings

My name is Terrence Petty. I'm a retired editor for the Associated Press. I've written a book about a German newspaper that tried to thwart Hitler in the Weimar era, the Münchener Post. My book contains important new material, drawn from long-forgotten archives in Munich, about this newspaper's battles with Hitler and about its incredibly courageous staff. I am requesting that information from my book be added to the Wikipedia entry on the Münchener Post. You will see from my book that the topic is incredibly relevant to current times.

There are two versions of the book. A 50-page Kindle edition published in December 2018 as part of the Amazon Original Series was a best-seller for two months. A 160-page print edition, with much more detail, was published by The Associated Press in May 2019.

Let me know if you need any further information.

Thanks!!!!

SenseData (talk) 07:30, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Hello SenseData, if you could mention specific changes on the form "Please change X to Y" then that would be good. You can include citations to yourself in parentheses "(Petty 2019, page 100)", which would be formatted by someone later on. You can then add another {{edit COI}} below. – Thjarkur (talk) 11:28, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Specific requested change - is this how it's done?

Hello. This is the first change I'd like to request. I hope this is the correct format

Please change this:

The Poison Kitchen ("Giftküche") was the name Adolf Hitler gave to a group of journalists of the newspaper who were highly critical of him and ran a series of extremely negative investigative exposés about Hitler in the 1920s and early 1930s, before Hitler came to power in Germany in 1933.[1]

To this:

The Poison Kitchen ("Giftküche") and Munich Pestilence (Münchener Pest) were names Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party gave to a group of journalists of the newspaper who were highly critical of him and ran a series of extremely negative investigative exposés about Hitler in the 1920s and early 1930s, before Hitler came to power in Germany in 1933.(Petty 2019, Page ix)

SenseData (talk) 19:25, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

I don’t have access to the book to verify, but I'll take your word on this, Terrence. Your formatting is fine (we just need the requests laid out in a way which makes it easy to understand the change, and to paste into the article if we want to implement the suggestion verbatim).  Done Pelagic ( messages ) – (21:49 Thu 03, AEDT) 10:49, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Second requested change

After this:

Ron Rosenbaum writes in his 1998 book about The Poison Kitchen:

"Their duel with Hitler lasted a dozen years and produced some of the sharpest, most penetrating insights into his character, his mind and method, then or since. Much of their work has been forgotten, but not much has been surpassed. And, as the name Poison Kitchen suggests, they succeeded in getting under Hitler's skin."[2]

Please add his:

In a 2019 book about the Munich Post, Terrence Petty wrote this:

"Reflective of its times, the Munich Post did not pretend to be a neutral newspaper. If the Post's editors were alive today, they would no doubt defend their style of journalism thusly: There was no greater threat to German democracy in the Weimar era than Adolf Hitler. They recognized it and set out to stop him. So much of what appeared on the pages of the Post ultimately played out after Hitler came to power. In the grand scheme of things, the editors of the Munich Post got it right. (Petty 2019, Page ix).

SenseData (talk) 19:40, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Have added the first sentence from this. The rest is too newspaper-article-like and isn't written in Wikipedia's hyper-neutral tone. – Thjarkur (talk) 12:52, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Third requested change

After this:

"Very little had ever been written about the Münchener Post until 1998 when American journalist Ron Rosenbaum published his book Explaining Hitler: The Search for the Origins of His Evil. Rosenbaum considers "the running battle between Hitler and the courageous reporters and editors of the Post...one of the great unreported dramas in the history of journalism", and challenges contemporary journalists to do justice to the "men who brought so much honor to the profession with their courage and investigative zeal" (Rosenbaum 37, 58)."

Please add this:

"Inspired by Rosenbaum's work, retired Associated Press editor Terrence Petty published a full book about the Munich Post in May 2019 titled "Enemy Of The People: The Munich Post and the Journalists Who Opposed Hitler." Petty examined archives in Munich that document Nazi libel lawsuits against the Post, assaults on the newspaper's editors, and biographical information about them. Petty writes: "There was no greater resource for my work than the Munich Post itself. The newspaper chronicled not only this dramatic and often-overlooked era in history but also its own role in those times.'" (Petty 2019, Page 129)

SenseData (talk) 20:03, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Have added a summarized version of this. – Thjarkur (talk) 16:51, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Fourth requested change

Please substitute this:

When Hitler finally came to power in 1933, 'the offices of Münchener Post were subject to a final ransacking by the S.A. on 9 March 1933 and all of the staff members were imprisoned in concentration camps.[3]

For this:

When Hitler finally came to power in 1933, the offices of the Münchener Post were subject to a final ransacking by the S.A. on 9 March 1933. The paper's staff went into hiding but were ultimately rounded up and put in Munich jails. One of them, Julius Zerfass, was later taken to the nearby Dachau concentration camp. All of the journalists were banned from practicing their profession, struggled to find other work, deprived of their pensions, and turned into pariahs. (Petty 2019, Pages 84-100, 108-119)

SenseData (talk) 20:30, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Fifth change request

Please replace this:

The Poison Kitchen group included Martin Gruber [de], Erhard Auer, Edmund Goldschagg [de], and Julius Zerfaß, and others. Goldschagg later co-founded the Süddeutsche Zeitung.[4]

With this:

The Post's top editors were Martin Gruber, Erhard Auer, Edmund Goldschagg, and Julius Zerfaß. After the paper's offices were ransacked and shut down, Auer, Goldschagg and others would meet secretly at a tavern they gave the code-name "Sea Palace" to discuss their next moves. Most of the editors were arrested in June 1933 and taken to Munich prisons. Some, like Auer, who was beaten during detention, were arrested multiple times. Auer was ultimately banned from Munich. He moved to Karlsruhe, where he lived under an alias, and died of an illness on March 20, 1945 at age 70. Gruber retired in 1932 and died of an illness in 1936 at age 70. After his release from prison, Goldschagg moved to Freiburg, his birthplace, along with his wife and their son. Goldschagg was once again arrested in 1934 for a letter that contained an insulting reference to Hitler but he was released after four weeks when a prosecutor determined it was a minor offense. In 1940, the Wehrmacht informed 54-year-old Goldschagg that because he was a reserve officer, he was being dispatched to serve as commander of an army unit near the French border. When the Wehrmacht realized they had called up a fierce opponent of Hitler, he was asked to swear loyalty to Hitler in writing. He refused and was dismissed from the army. In 1943, Goldschagg helped save the life of a Jewish woman who was facing deportation to a death camp _ Else Rosenfeld _ by providing safe harbor to her at his apartment. Rosenfeld, who was given false papers, was able to escape into Switzerland on April 20, 1944. After the war, Goldschagg became a co-founder of the Süddeutsche Zeitung. Julius Zerfass served two stints in Munich prisons before he was taken to Dachau on June 30, 1933, and given the prisoner number 2307. After his release six months later, Zerfass and his family fled to Switzerland. In 1936, Zerfass published a book exposing torture and death at Dachau, titled Dachau 1933: A Chronicle (Dachau 1933: Eine Chronik). In 1939, Zerfass was placed on a Gestapo list of Hitler opponents who were to be immediately arrested if seen in Germany. In Switzerland, Zerfass continued to speak and write against the Nazis. He died in March 1956. He was 70 years old. (Petty 2019, Pages 76-86, 95-100, 108-119)

SenseData (talk) 21:20, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Hi @SenseData: Thank you for waiting for someone to evaluate these requests. Can you email me copies of the pages from Petty that you are citing? You can email me by clicking this link: Special:EmailUser/Z1720 Also, in the second edit request, can you put the page numbers that you are citing after each sentence? This will speed up the assessment. Thanks! Z1720 (talk) 15:56, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi SenseData I received the attachments you sent me. For the first request, you can find my edits to your proposed text below. Instead of citing large page numbers at the end of the paragraph, I want to cite each sentence with the page number that we can find the information in. This makes it easier for readers to verify and find the information when it is published. At the end of each sentence, can you put the page number in brackets? Also, please read the text and answer the questions below the text as this will help me expand upon the information. Please also check to make sure the information is accurate and verified in the source.

The offices of the Münchener Post ransacked by the S.A. on 9 March 1933. The paper's staff went into hiding and many were arrested and put in Munich jails. The journalists were banned from practicing their profession, struggled to find other work and deprived of their pensions. (Petty 2019, Pages 84-100, 108-119)

• Was every staff member arrested by the S.A., and is this verified in the source?
• I removed "turned into pariahs" because I do not understand what that means in this context. Were they shunned by society? Were they unable to get other friends?

For the second request, this is very interesting information but I think most of the paragraph is off-topic. The information about each person should be placed in the person's article on Wikipedia. I am willing to reconsider the first two sentences but I need more information about 1) What made these people the top editors? (is this verified in the source? Were they the most popular?) and 2) What did the editors decide to do at the Sea Palace tavern, and is this related to The Poison Kitchen.

Let me know if you need more information or have any questions. Z1720 (talk) 01:44, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Moved from User talk:Z1720

 – Z1720 (talk) 16:05, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Hello Z1720

Resending my response to your Feb. 2 edits of new material for the Münchener Post entry, including precise page citations. I hope it gets to you this time around.

The editors who were in charge of the Münchener Post's coverage of Hitler and the Nazis were Editor in Chief Erhard Auer, Editor Martin Gruber, Political Editor Edmund Goldschagg and Features Editor Julius Zerfass (Petty 2019, pp 4-6). The newspaper's offices were ransacked by the S.A. on 9 March 1933 (Petty 2019, p. 76). The paper's staff went into hiding (Petty 2019, p. 79), were eventually arrested and put in Munich jails (Petty 2019, p. 86). The journalists were banned from practicing their profession, struggled to find other work and deprived of their pensions. (Petty 2019, p. 111). One of them, Julius Zerfass, spent six months at the Dachau concentration camp (Petty 2019, p. 108).

Additionally, I see in the original entry that the phrase "Poison Kitchen group" is used to refer to the paper and its staff. This should be changed to "the publication," "the newspaper," or "the Post" The reason is this: although there are some archival records of Nazis calling the Post the "Poison Kitchen," they are far outnumbered by the paper being referred to as the "Munich Pestilence". If you were in a Munich beer hall in 1932 and started talking about the Munich Pestilence, many more people would know what you were talking about than if you used the phrase "Poison Kitchen." I admit that "Poison Kitchen" has a flashier ring than "Munich Pestilence," but to suggest that this was common usage would be incorrect.

Thanks!

SenseData (talk) 07:11, 6 February 2021 (UTC)SenseData

@SenseData: I have added the first paragraph to the article. For the second change, I am inclined to change "Poison Kitchen" to "Munich Pestilence". Before we make the change, can we add information about the origin and use of "Munich Pestilence" in the 1930s? This helps the reader understand why we changed the title from Poison Kitchen to Munich Pestilence. Z1720 (talk) 17:56, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Moved from User talk:Z1720

 – Z1720 (talk) 15:35, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Hello Z1720

Would the following be helpful?:

According to Paul Hoser, a German historian and expert on the Munich press during the Weimar era, "Adolf Hitler dubbed the newspaper the Munich pestilence." There have also been published references to Nazis calling the paper the "Poison Kitchen"

For a citation:

See the article titled "Münchener Post" on the website Historisches Lexikon Bayern, which is run by the Bavarian State Library in Munich. https://www.historisches-lexikon-bayerns.de/Lexikon/M%C3%BCnchener_Post

FYI: The German word "Pest" can be translated into either "pestilence" or "plague." I would go with "pestilence" to connote Hitler's view of the paper.

Let me know if you need anything else.

SenseData (talk) 06:50, 7 February 2021 (UTC)SenseData

@SenseData: I have done a review of the article and reorganised some sections. I replaced "Poison Kitchen" with "Operations" and moved most of the information into the "History" section. Some of the information can be placed into new sections later (maybe a "Nazi reaction" heading?) but right now there's not enough information to justify a separation. Please look at the article and post below (not on my talk page) if you want any changes or additions. Z1720 (talk) 16:09, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

The reorganized article looks good. There is a mistake in the boxed content. The newspaper ceased publication on 9 March 1933, not 1 January 1933. Thanks for all of your help. You're a skilled editor SenseData (talk) 01:40, 8 February 2021 (UTC)SenseData

Hi SenseData is there a source to verify this date? I want to add this date to the History section, too. Z1720 (talk) 22:36, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Hi, sorry for the delayed response. When storm troopers raided the paper on 9 March, 1933, that ended publication of the Post. For clarity, maybe change wording in the history section to read "The newspaper's offices were ransacked by the S.A. on 9 March 1933, ending publication of the Post, and the paper's staff went into hiding."

SenseData (talk) 05:28, 16 February 2021 (UTC)SenseData

 Done Z1720 (talk) 13:39, 16 February 2021 (UTC)