Talk:M-147 (Michigan highway)

Assessment

This article has three sentences. This isn't anywhere near start-class yet. CL — 04:45, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Tonight I added the headings and infobox, referenced the time line in the infobox. I can't figure out from the info on hand where it ran. Google Maps puts the State Prison of Southern Michigan as on Cooper St./M-106, so I can't figure out where the roadway would have been. Imzadi1979 (talk) 23:46, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

You'll want to take a look at this old topo Strato|sphere 03:12, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Notability

Are there any guidelines on what makes a road notable? I found Wikipedia:Notability (streets, roads, and highways), but that is a failed proposal. The only source that is not a map consists of two sentences in a short piece in the Easy living supplement of the Gaylord Herald Times. I don't see how this meets the WP:GNG. AIRcorn (talk) 01:07, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

"It's only a half-mile long, the second shortest highway on Michigan's state highway system, but for those who travel it one way, M-147 is the longest road in the world. It is the highway that leads from M-106 north of Jackson to the gates of Southern Michigan Prison, the world's largest walled prison."

WP:ROADOUTCOMES documents the fact that state highways are not deleted at AfD. WP:GNG isn't exactly the best guideline to apply in this situation, as I will lay out.

1. The Michigan State Trunkline Highway System itself is notable. That can't be disputed as there are whole books and various in-depth newspaper articles about the highways in Michigan.
2. To have a systematic coverage of all components of the system, there are List of Interstate Highways in Michigan, List of U.S. Highways in Michigan and List of state trunklines in Michigan. Because of WP:SIZE, those tables can't be merged into the system article.
3. To continue the systematic coverage of all components of the system, each state highway, past or present, has its own article in some fashion.
   1. The exception to this is where business routes have been merged into their parent highways' articles, like M-32 has, into lists for all business routes of a single parent, like Business routes of Interstate 75 in Michigan. All state highway article titles direct to either a full article or some specific section of a list or a parent article.

Based on the above, M-147 has just as much right to have an article as part of the systematic coverage of the State Trunkline Highway System. It does not have a parent highway to be merged to; its parent article is the list of all state highways and can't be merged into that list without creating issues of WP:UNDUE coverage.

Maps are secondary sources. The primary source involved would be the raw GIS data, aerial surveys or even surveyor's notes used to generate the map. There is editorial judgement on what natural features to include (just rivers? all streams? how about which lakes or ponds?), whether or not the map shows terrain lines, which roads to mark (there's 122,382.1 miles of roadway in this state, so it's obvious cartographers can't/don't show all of them) and various other considerations.

Separate from the classification of sources into primary/secondary/tertiary sources, there is first-party and third-party classification. This article uses maps from the Michigan Department of Transportation and its predecessor agency, the Michigan State Highway Department. I could just have easily used another series of maps from a commercial cartographer however, the Library of Michigan happens to have an excellent archive of the official state highway maps that I had scanned for my personal use in 2008. As well, being the official state map carries with the imprimatur that the maps are accurately updated based on the status of the highway system; in other words, MDOT is much less likely to miss an update in keeping one state map series correct over the years than Rand McNally would with 48 or 50 states.

For these reasons, I reject the objections, and stand by the existence of the article. If you have additional information and sources, please share them and we'll expand the article further. Imzadi 1979 → 01:55, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

I fully agree with Imzadi1979s comments, state highways in the United States have time and time again been proven notable enough to warrant their own articles. All state highways are considered important, regardless of length, as the most important roads in a state are often maintained by the state with less important roads maintained by counties or municipalities. There are many other short roads similar to this that also have well-written articles, such as New Jersey Route 59. In some states with a large number of short state routes, such as Maryland, a list may be created to include roads that are less than one mile long. However, Michigan appears to have few roads that are under a mile, so such a list would not work. Dough4872 02:05, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

To be honest if I saw this at AFD I would still probably suggest deletion, but WP:ROADOUTCOMES is enough to convince me that it would be kept. It is a nice little article and I have no problems with it being classed as Good in its current state. AIRcorn (talk) 15:52, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Incorrect Information

While I know the Wikipedia editors disallow the use of my (Chris Bessert) website as an "official" source, if anyone is interested in more accurate/precise information, based on copious official Michigan State Highway Department/Michigan Department of Transportation maps and documents, feel free to navigate over to https://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/M-147.html for the actual establishment, cancellation and jurisdictional transfer dates and other information for this highway. Additionally, the map on the article is incorrect as well. See https://www.michiganhighways.org/maps/route/M-147.html for reference. CBessert (talk) 19:46, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

@CBessert: as part of the AARoad Wiki, we've been recreating the base map data for the various highways we cover using OSM data. commons:Data:M-147 (Michigan highway).map has been uploaded with a new map. The map here on Wikipedia will take a bit to update, but it's already showing the correct shape at [1]. (If the terminus needs a tweak, let us know, and it can be fixed quickly.) As to sourcing, you are correct, but AARW will accept your site as a source because the community has acknowledged you as a subject-matter expert, so I encourage you to join AARW and contribute there. Imzadi 1979 → 20:32, 23 November 2023 (UTC)