Talk:Mac Eoin Bissett family

Untitled

Alert: Perhaps these refer to Bisset ancestors? The following names appear referenced in several dozen manuscripts of the Genealogical Office in the NLI in Dublin:

• Bisse/Bice - pedigrees (MS 215-219, Anglo-Irish pedigrees I, p.180),
• Bysse/Byse - (MS. 213 Antrim Families, p.152)
• Bysses - (as above, p. 154)

These references include coats of arms, (MS 526), ecclesiastical visitations, will abstracts, funeral entries, etc. Source McAnlis: [1]

Merry Christmas Tricky (talk) 14:42, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Thank you! To you as well. I didn't know about these. Although I'm fairly confident a pedigree of the main line does not survive, these may very well be Bissetts. There is the problem that the final consonant (stop/plosive) appears to have always been pronounced and was also frequently voiced -d-. I don't know the phonetics of it but wonder if this isn't proof the stress is on the second syllable. The -e- I have seen lengthened with the fada. However what you have found could be diminutives of a sort, which are often formed in English by clipping/truncation. Stress in Irish varies with the dialect and so some septs could have placed it on the first syllable. I've also come up with a possible explanation for the form Myssett/Missett. -m- is the homorganic nasal of -b-. But, there was an allegedly unrelated Meath family of English origin called Myssett, still noted in the 17th century. The sources may be wrong about their origins, but if not then their existence could have confused some English officials after the Antrim Bissetts fell into obscurity.

I have no way of getting to the NLI but have a distant cousin at Trinity whom I might bother... once I have much more of the article written, which will take some time. Also it happens that Kenneth Nicholls himself has done some of the only research ever on this family in Ireland and my cousin happens to know him. So if I can get to him before I end up too occupied this coming spring or summer then a productive exchange might take place. DinDraithou (talk) 21:20, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Articles

Letting everyone know that I haven't lost interest and will return to this article. I'm trying to finish a number of others I created months and months before on my own distant family. When I have completed four or five in particular, which will not take so much longer since they are now much closer to finished, I will return to the Bissetts. Eventually I may create articles for Sir Hugh Byset and for the Lady Margery Byset. Margery and Hugh are both ancestors of the modern British Royal Family among many other notables.[2][3] DinDraithou (talk) 02:40, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

After having written much of the first section, I see now that John Byset (died 1257) will need an article. He was remembered in Scotland also and there is this longish story about everything which is undoubtedly in some part fabulous, complete with a tournament, and thus inappropriate for this article as I see it. Parts of it may be based on historical events but I can't say which. DinDraithou (talk) 03:49, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Hold up

I need to explain a major hold up. First, I have seen it suggested that Sabia O'Neill was Margery's mother, which could very well be the case, but modern genealogists of the British royalty and aristocracy, who undoubtedly don't even suggest a mother because they're not terribly familiar with their Irish sources, don't know about it. So all I have is that speculation and the obvious probability because the dates are acceptable.

Then we have Sabia's father Hugh O'Neill (Aodh Ó Néill), very likely identical with the King of Ulster Aodh Reamhar Ó Néill, who according to the only pedigree I have seen had four daughters. However their names are not given, nor whom they married. So I will have to be very careful with my wording and point out all the problems.

Why? Through the MacDonnells Margery Byset is an ancestor of living royalty and aristocracy and this is well known. But if there is the possibility her maternal grandfather was an O'Neill king of Ulster people will eventually seize on that and this article will be the source. Five years from now Aodh Reamhar could then be appearing in online pedigrees of the British Royal Family and so on. You would be surprised how much genealogical research remains to be done on the ancestry of the royalty and aristocracy of the Anglo-Celtic Isles. For example, Murrough O'Brien, 1st Earl of Thomond is definitely an ancestor of the Princes William and Harry through the O'Shaughnessys, but the online pedigrees only trace through the Roches and O'Donovans (and in between) up to Gyles O'Shaughnessy wife of Donal IV O'Donovan, after which we have to refer to the O'Shaughnessy pedigree reconstructed in Irish scholarship, which gets us to Murrough O'Brien of Thomond. We have a similar case here with Sabia but I lack a source explicitly telling me she was one of Aodh Reamhar's four daughters. One may exist, but I don't have it. This article needs to encourage readers to investigate the matter themselves and not just assume the evident pedigree is the right one.

A further problem is that I have to split the discussion between the two sections on Sabia and Margery because of the MacDonnell claim to the Lordship of the Glens, which has nothing directly to do with the O'Neills. This involves the Savages again and it is all quite complicated. Add to this Gaelic law versus English law and the differing opinions of modern scholars on the status of the Mac Eoin Bissetts after the 1399 marriage. There is a minority opinion that the MacDonnells achieved overlordship in 1399 but this is not supported by the Irish or English sources, only the Scottish claim which some still persist with. So I want everyone to know that I am working on it and this article won't look like it does forever. DinDraithou (talk) 20:08, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and redlinked Sabia O'Neill. She was clearly someone of importance and because she is likely to have been Margery's mother we have enough for a separate article. Also we can go on further about her possible father there and it might be nice to discuss what it meant and still means to be a descendant of Niall of the Nine Hostages, especially in the political context. This article is on the Bissetts, but since we have no surviving pedigree for them it is very tempting to focus on the O'Neill pedigree. Another article is the right choice. This way I can sooner finish the section in which I mention her here. DinDraithou (talk) 19:45, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

But I'm not saying I'll write that whole article. I'll start it, but my focus is on the Bissett family and their unique experience. Margery had one or two sisters whom I need to mention, and this MacGion (Mac Eoin) discovered by Nicholls was most likely a cousin. He'll reappear in the section on Margery because the MacDonnell claim does date from 1399 and yet here we have another Mac Eoin in 1403, meaning the MacDonnells got no more than a small estate and novel claim with Margery. O'Donovan says in a note that the MacDonnells don't show a notable presence in Ulster until the 16th century. Kingston is a major dissenter but he has an inadequate command of the sources and of course is writing on the MacDonnells. The review I've read of his book criticizes his overall approach to issues. DinDraithou (talk) 20:33, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Sources, notes

Yesterday I read Sean Duffy's contribution for the first time, after having only snippets to work with before. I report I am pleasantly suprised that he and I have independently come to several of the same conclusions, although these were not so difficult. He focuses on the very complicated arrival of the Bissetts to Ireland and does not take a position on what happened with the MacDonnells post-Margery. Nora lives (talk) 13:51, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Duffy makes a major expansion of the first section possible, but much is learned speculation I don't want to go into more than is suitable for this article. He also offers information new to me, some of which I will have to include... once the rest of the article is more finished. The Henricus/Henry Byset I mention in the last section evidently had interests in Ireland himself, and the role of John Byset's presumed brother Walter was greater than I knew. Also early interaction and intermarriage with the Clann Somhairle (ancestral to the MacDonnells) and other kindreds are discussed. Nora lives (talk) 20:09, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

I am looking at Duncan in full and find my treatment of the Bruce invasion superior to his as far as the Bissetts. Without support he finds Bruce's John/Johannes Bissett the son of Hugh and seems unaware of earlier treatments assuming this is the Mac Eoin (Lord Bissett) gone into rebellion. Of course we have no pedigree and Duncan could be right, but son against father seems less likely than new branches in rivalry. Nora lives (talk) 20:05, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Kingston I have looked through today for all his discussion of the Bissetts. His treatment is difficult to describe but "amateur" and "incompetent" come to mind. Having already reached the conclusion the MacDonnells effectively conquered the Bissetts almost immediately following the marriage, he proceeds to disregard any evidence to the contrary, including that presented by another scholar, a MacDonnell in fact, in an otherwise stated to be valuable paper. Of the Tudor lists I have used Kingston is completely unaware, which is pretty bad because they are well known to scholars of the Late Medieval nobility of Ireland. His entire purpose is to make you certain the MacDonnells succeeded as he says but he presents no evidence besides the claim itself, and then cites his own conclusions. All I have gotten from him is this new reference. Nora lives (talk) 17:39, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Problems. The New York Public Library system does not have the journal The Glynns and so I have tried to get McDonnell's article "Glenarm Friary and the Bissets" through them on interlibrary loan, even offering to pay a fee. But they've sent me saying they can't do it and the nearest copy may or may not be at Boston College, depending on if they have that volume. I'm hoping for a scan, so next week I'll call around and if I can locate vol. XV hopefully I will find someone helpful too.

Also they had me fill out the wrong form for a scan of Nicholls, which they have offsite, and I need to do all of that over by email. Nora lives (talk) 17:17, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

In possibly around two weeks I will have the computer I was previously using in my possession and my bookmarks with it. There are maybe ten additional sources I discovered in an exhaustive search online a while back. Nora lives (talk) 21:45, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

I have the computer and the links, and not only that, I've requested a scan of Nicholls from the New York Public Library and hopefully will have that or access to Peritia 1 onsite in a couple of days. For McDonnell's paper I plan to call the National Library of Ireland and perhaps take advantage of this service (/also).[4] Maybe there is more out there. I'll pretend I'm a family friend or something, like I'm doing the research for my girlfriend.

I will be applying for work in the NYPL system, which I am unlikely to get, if anyone cares. It's worth a try. I won't be very embarrassed if I'm unsuccessful. Nora lives (talk) 09:02, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

([5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16][17][18][19]) Nora lives (talk) 15:09, 11 July 2011 (UTC) ([20][21][22][23][24][25][26][27][28][29][30][31][32][33][34][35][36][37][38][39][40][41]dates?[42]) Some are repeats to be checked for superior scans or editions. Nora lives (talk) 21:01, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Fuck yeah, readers. I now have Nicholls from the NYPL (who have earned a donation), via Princeton University it appears. The article is very broad in scope and he only spends about half a page on the Bissetts, but that half a page is great. Nicholls is a very highly regarded historian. In effect he says what I've been saying, that "yeah, right," the Bissetts didn't just give up their lordship to the MacDonnells, and only vanish from (surviving) record in 1522/3. I can use it to "finish" the unfinished section and then we can see what McDonnell has to say. As far as using the medieval sources myself I've gone about as far as I can (to my current knowledge) in the first several sections, and think I've done pretty well. For what will come in the later, here I had a top rank professional scholar agreeing with me before even seeing his work in full. Nora lives (talk) 01:15, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

One of my sources might be missing, and I can't remember the title. It would go in the Norman and English documents subsection. In an entry or something one of the MacDonalds petitions whichever king of England to help or go easy on whichever Bissett, I think Sir Hugh. Ring a bell, anyone? I'll probably have to search Open Library again.[43] Nora lives (talk) 04:46, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

By the way, all of you out there, I will be finishing this project whether some of us are real friends or not. Scholars often develop their own special attachments to subjects, and this family deserve the superior coverage. I am not going to leave thousands of people I have no knowledge of wondering. Nora lives (talk) 22:12, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Nicholls does not mention that a Savage had the wardship of the Mac Eoin's daughters and may have given away Margery to MacDonnell deliberately in order to remove the Bissetts. I need to review all of the evidence carefully, make sure I have nothing wrong, and then find a way to suggest that without violating policy here. Perhaps it has been suggested by another scholar but I have not seen it, or could have missed it reading too quickly, or could have forgotten it after getting wasted. Since Nicholls makes no mention of it I am not required to include it in the article for a better rating, but I want to be thorough and have very high standards. What I will do for now, before that review of my sources, is continue along in the 16th century, getting to our first appearances of MacDonnell claims for the lands the Bissetts are said to be no longer on, the Mac Eoin referred to as the "Baron Bissett" in these documents. The MacDonnells are clever as possible and say that they "have quietly been in possession" of them (for longer than it appears) and so it would be nice if Queen Elizabeth would say everything is fine then. No mention is made of any possible Mac Eoin out there so we can assume the main line went extinct by itself or was destroyed or driven off by the MacDonnells. From the Tudor lists we know the Crown was aware the Bissetts held the lordship until recently and surely knew the MacDonnells were full of shit, even with the style they adopted a century and a half before.

Then I will get to Randal MacDonnell's modern revival of the style and the section will be finished, but for the wardship of the Bissett daughters, and the article will be B class. Next I will revisit the first section with Duffy, find my missing source I mention above, mention the wardship, do some other things, then see about getting it a high rating. Someone other than the author has to rate it so. Nora lives (talk) 21:47, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Those other things include what I find in McDonnell's paper, and the earliest possible source mentioning what Sir Hugh "forfeited." I doubt the English Crown was able to force him off by then, considering the damage caused by Bruce, and I have never seen any mention of the Earl of Ulster's involvement. Nora lives (talk) 22:01, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I am now rushing to get as much finished as possible before my life falls apart tomorrow. I've been in and out of a binge I should not have started ten days ago and it has taken me right down. I even bought bourbon, which is bad. McDonnell's article may no longer be possible, but it's only one, and we already have Nicholls and others in support. I just need to bring in Duffy and mention a few other things, do a little of this and that, and it can be submitted, although someone may have to do this for me, because I have no idea of what kind of condition I'll be in, or where. Already we're looking far superior to many other "good" articles in the project, and at the same time not writing a book. This is an article about the "general" history of a family, like Clan Maclachlan, a good article that is really pretty good. You cannot include absolutely everything. More can be found in the references. Nora lives (talk) 13:42, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

• Duffy for the first section
• Hore for the second
• The Ghost for the next to last
• My missing source would add a nice detail but is nonessential. I have not seen it cited by anyone. UPDATE: source found, and not only that, cited by Duffy on the last page of his paper.[44] (Calendar of the Patent Rolls, Edward III, Vol. IV)
• McDonnell's paper, which I do not have, is something about Glenarm Friary. UPDATE:[45][46] probably enough for the article. A lot of the rest I can fill in. Fuck, yeah!

Nora lives (talk) 17:58, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

• What's left in Chisholm-Batten on the Greek claim. I might be able to get this article rated A class (after GA) too with that. Nora lives (talk) 18:03, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

I realize you all must consider me crazy or psychotically devoted trying to do this when I am sick and in possibly hopeless circumstances, and that you probably are not even interested. Likely it means nothing to you. But when I started I made some promises, and have made more since then, and the challenge has been a factor because this has turned out to be a very difficult project, as I suspected it might be from the beginning. So whatever some of you may think of it all I am enjoying the accomplishment as well as the connection. We are looking pretty stellar here and getting better... but I do confess that the small chance it may mean something to someone I love, if only a little, is why it exists in the first place. There is the (unlikely) possibility she is not a descendant of this family or of their kin in Scotland, but the other research I have seen out there, however professional looking, is poorly informed. I would research her other background, more important to her, but that has been taken care of by others and she appears to know more about it herself, and I would be out of my element there anyway. However difficult, this article I can do, knowing some of my sources already from other research, and being related in different ways to many of the people the Bissetts came in contact with. This last fact has been a fucking delight! Although I feel bad being a descendant of Gerald Mór FitzGerald, who may have been as much responsible for ruining this enigmatic family as the MacDonnells. Even after Knockavoe they might have been able to stand up to Alexander Carragh if they were in better condition, but FitzGerald gave them a horrible thrashing... and for no reason given whatsoever. Maybe he just felt like it. Maybe the O'Neills were frustrating him and the Bissetts, having the misfortune of living nearby, were not expecting anything like that to come their way. Then trying to build back up by joining O'Neill's expeditions they meet with more unexpected misfortune and it finishes them. I can feel that deeply. Nothing went their way in the end and they were powerless, then sank into oblivion. Some of them probably wandered and drank themselves to death. They were noble people. Nora lives (talk) 19:48, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

And I do not claim to be quite that but my circumstances have not been wonderful either.

What I should mention somewhere in the article is that the family seem to utterly disappear from the Ulster landscape for a very long time, proof of how broken they were. They are probably even not to be found in the fiants with certainty. Later some reappear but they are probably not as numerous as some authorities think. The Mac Eoins and McKeowns appear to have various origins, and some Bissetts in Ireland today will be of more recent Scottish origin. However a strong possibility is that a number of the Irish Bissetts migrated back to Scotland after suffering so much disaster. While the MacDonnells were busy pouring in to Ulster there could have been flow the other way. Nora lives (talk) 20:27, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

• Expand 1586 description (Bagenal) section with quotation on geography
• Create new section, not overlarge in order to avoid speculation and too many assumptions, on the later history of the family

Nora lives (talk) 23:20, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Title

One thing this article needs is a better title. Bissett family of Ireland? Bissett(s) of the Glens? Mac Eoin Bissett (family)? Nora lives (talk) 01:06, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I am inclined to go with some version of the last, because while members of his family preceded him in Ireland, owning properties in Mide and elsewhere, John Byset (including his brother Walter) and his descendants made the permanent settlement and from the 14th century onwards we only have their history to discuss, whether or not there might have been other branches settled. Furthermore Duffy goes into a considerable amount of detail discussing the activities of the family in Scotland before and while they were establishing themselves in Ulster, and that would make the first section absolutely enormous. John Byset the Elder died in 1257, and while his son John Byset the Younger inherited from him, he died soon after in 1259 or 1260, attempting to leave his lands to his three daughters, but they and their husbands did not gain possession of them and the family in Ireland were afterwards headed by the descendants of evidently another (younger) son of John Byset the Elder, who in or before 1291 was already styling himself Mac Eoin and was influential in Ulster politics. Even though we don't have a pedigree this much is pretty clear, and should make for a nice neat article. Nora lives (talk) 12:53, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

New source: Good faith contribution

I have reverted the most recent contribution because the source (Peter Grant: "Early Mediaeval Bissets in England and Scotland" 2010) for the claim, namely that one mid-12th century Robert Bisset of Scotland became the ancestor of the Irish family, is, outside this article, unknown on the Internet. Perhaps this person is somewhere mentioned, and I will have to check Duffy again, but we have no surviving pedigree for the family. Furthermore, John Byset and his closest relations were not the first to appear in Ireland themselves, as discussed by Duffy at some length, and which I have yet to include here.

But this addition of Robert Bisset was well-meaning. What we need, however, are reliable sources for claims or information of this kind. Nora lives (talk) 02:26, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

=Wow ...

Wow. Fergananim (talk) 16:51, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

John Bisset ancestor of the Irish Bissets

Is not not probable that John, the ancestor of this Irish family, was the same John Bisset who fled from Scotland to Ireland with his uncle Walter, after Walter had murdered in the Earl of Atholl in about 1242 ?, as now mentioned in the Scottish Clan Bissett article.QuintusPetillius (talk) 17:10, 13 September 2014 (UTC)