Talk:Macaroni and cheese

History section compressed

I've condensed the history section considerably. I removed much about the history and industrialization of pasta manufacture; this info belongs in the macaroni article, but only clutters up the mac and cheese article. Ditto cheese manufacture. A lot of it was also unsourced, or sourced but quoted erroneously. If I left it in, I tried to edit the info to reflect what the source says. Some statements still lack citation.

The article is lacking early 20th century history of this dish. According to sources, it was fashionable in the 18th century but did not become popular with the masses when the ingredients became affordable in the 19th century. What caused the popularity to surge in the 20th c.? I hate to say it, considering earlier comments on this page, but I suspect it was due to the affordability of Kraft Dinner. Or possibly Velveeta. But that's only my guess. If anyone can provide well-sourced info on mac and cheese in the 20th c., I think it would add to the article. Richigi (talk) 16:50, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 09:56, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

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Macaroni and cheese → Macaroni cheese – This dish, from reading the article as currently written, was originally an English dish (possible brought from France / Italy), and therefore has strong ties to England. It should therefore be named using the English variation of the name (macaroni cheese) per WP:TIES. Betrandrussell (talk) 14:29, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:RETAIN. Hot Stop talk-contribs 14:44, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, but why? On what grounds is WP:TIES not used? Betrand russell 0 (talk) 13:24, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose: Unnecessary WP:ENGVAR change. —BarrelProof (talk) 22:17, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

On what grounds is WP:TIES not used? Betrand russell 0 (talk) 13:24, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:RETAIN. Just because its origin was in the UK, as stated in the article, there was a period where it had fallen out of favour there. It still has remained popular in the US and other countries. Therefore, there is no evidence of current strong ties to warrant a change. Zzyzx11 (talk) 22:31, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Macaroni cheese did not fall out of favour in the UK. It's mentioned in the article, but the referenced article does not say it fell out of favour. I can tell you that I kept on eating it. It also says (in the Wikipedia) article, that it came back in popularity a few years later. What kind of argument is this anyway? Have we lost the right to our dish because someone accused the British of not liking it so much any more for a few years? Betrand russell 0 (talk) 13:24, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. Much as it pains me to say it (since "macaroni and cheese" sounds intensely weird to us Britons), WP:ENGVAR applies here. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:07, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

On what grounds is WP:TIES not used? Betrand russell 0 (talk) 13:24, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

In what way does it have strong national ties to the UK? It's just as common, if not more common, elsewhere. -- Necrothesp (talk) 22:03, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose - As per WP:Retain and WP:Engvar. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 17:08, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

On what grounds is WP:TIES not used? Betrand russell 0 (talk) 13:24, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Ties is not overwhelmingly in the UK favour sinc et is a dish well-known in the US, other editors have noted that there are other applicable policies for the version of English used. GraemeLeggett (talk) 15:47, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

The strongest national ties are with Canada.[1] Based on that, the title should simply be Dinner. —  AjaxSmack  02:34, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose - the word strong in strong national ties is not satisfied here ... Red Slash 22:41, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Mac and cheese and politics

Can someone in the US who can find the sources of this story more easily than I can, introduce this into the article, please. http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=18052#more-18052 I don't want to do it as I'm not familiar with the nuances of US politics. MidlandLinda (talk) 19:09, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Macaroni and cheese/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

This is an important page which is proceeding well. However it is still very much restricted to the ENglish speaking world. I would give it B status.Harrypotter 20:42, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 20:42, 7 April 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 22:43, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

"healthier"

Recently, an IP removed some text: "Often, packaged macaroni and cheese mixes contain ingredients that are not certified as kosher. This is because many cheese products include rennet, which is a meat by-product and thus cannot be combined with dairy in kosher food. Many brands are marketed with healthier ingredients including organic, lower sodium, lower fat, whole wheat, gluten-free, and vegan varieties."[2]

The editor did not explain their deletion, so it was restored. I don't know why it was removed (an edit summary is always a good idea). That said, I think the section has problems.

First is the source "Eat This, Not That". Is it a reliable source? I see no indication that it is, only bold, unsupported claims that they (whoever they might be...) are solely responsible for restaurant chains starting to post nutritional information and add healthier options, the website is "the definitive resource" for a laundry list of things and that they are "the world’s leading authority" on several things as well. As to who writes it, whether there is editorial oversight and a reputation for fact checking and accuracy, I see no indication. It would seem the site is delivered engraved on stone tablets and Moses codes the pages.

As for the content, yes, many M&C mixes are not certified kosher. Lots of foods are not certified kosher (various cheeses, pizzas, hot dogs, sausages, salads, sodas, brands of milk, cheese curls, tacos, etc.). Most articles on these items do not discuss whether or not, for example, Dr Pepper is kosher. Those interested in whether or not a product is kosher -- especially one with cheese in it -- don't need this article to specify that some are and some are not. Further, the lengthy list of dietary concerns that might be an issue for M&C (halal, vegetarian/vegan, macrobiotic, low sodium/fat/carb, gluten free, low remainder, high fiber, etc.) leave open the question of why this non-answer on one concern is included.

Next is the confused list of supposedly "healthier ingredients". Organic ingredients are those that are produced in ways that are intended to be sustainable and less harmful for the environment -- the consumer's health is not part of the goal. "Healthier" is not justified here.

Lower sodium diets may be healthier for some consumers. For some people, it's not an issue. For a small minority, a higher sodium diet is recommended. "Healthier" is not justified here. "Lower fat" is similar.

"Gluten-free", despite the current fad and pseudo-science, is "healthier" for those with coeliac disease. Diagnosed rates of coeliac disease are similar to those of PKU. Is there phenylalanine in that M&C? Peanuts? Sugar? MSG? Milk?

If you are concerned about any of these, we currently mention that some of the concerns are addressed by some brands. As for the concerns we don't currently mention, the situation is... exactly the same. Wikipedia can't tell you that M&C isn't a concern for your particular dietary concern and we can't tell you that it is a concern. Instead, we say that some might not be a concern for some. Basically, if you have a dietary concern (religious, health, cultural, whatever), check the label, without regard to what the food is.

This section is poorly sourced and really doesn't say much of anything. - SummerPhD^v2.0 17:57, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

Propose move to Macaroni cheese

As clearly stated in the article, macaroni cheese (in its current form) originated in England. I propose therefore using the English terminology (macaroni cheese) as the page title, rather than the American (macaroni and cheese) or Jamaican (macaroni pie). If nobody objects I'll make the move. Marthiemoo (talk) 23:35, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

So, Thomas Paine should be in British English? - SummerPhD^v2.0 01:04, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

No, in that case it's clear that Thomas Paine is an important and recognised part of US culture and history. He is not viewed in the UK as playing an equally important role for Norfolk. Marthiemoo (talk) 15:34, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

This has been proposed previously, as you might have noticed if you read the talk page a bit. You don't seem to have made any better arguments for moving it than were made the last time this came up, so it looks like that WP:RETAIN still applies. – Bardbom (talk) 23:51, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

Apologies, the archived section for some reason isn't showing up on the mobile version of the site on my phone, so though I could see there was a topic heading I couldn't see anything under it. Also, no reason to get arsey about it. I wasn't aware that a previous WP:TIES argument had been made. I think that argument is weak as it seems to basically come down to population size, which is a little odd. If a dish is thought of as being a typical part of national cuisine by two countries, it seems reasonable that the country in which it originated should be given priority of ownership. Marthiemoo (talk) 15:31, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

Agree , if it comes from the country..call it from the originator countries name 92.30.176.192 (talk) 07:27, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

With tomato sauce

Where I live in western NC, there is a reasonably common variation that adds a layer of tomato sauce to a pan of oven cooked macaroni and cheese. This is the version sold at several homestyle restaurants. It is well enough known that no one thinks it particularly odd, but unusual enough that the restaurants inform the customers when it is ordered. Is this sort of thing known outside of my area? --Khajidha (talk) 14:26, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

The combination of tomato and cheese produces the umami flavor and is very common (think pizza, adding cheese to pasta with tomato sauce, ketchup on cheeseburger, etc.). So tomatoes in some form is not at all surprising.

That said, we need a reliable source discussing it to add anything here. (Adding stewed tomatoes is reasonably common around here.) - SummerPhD^v2.0 20:19, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

I don’t know about adding stewed tomatoes or tomato sauce or ketchup but I often slice tomatoes, salt and pepper them, and serve and eat them alongside my macaroni cheese (and I’m English)Overlordnat1 (talk) 09:16, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

English or Italian origin?

The article currently states that macaroni and cheese "is a dish of English origin" and that "It originated in Italy". In the History section an Italian and an English recipe from the 14th century are mentioned, but not which was earlier. What is the history, exactly? Can the first paragraph and the History section be clarified? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaĉjo (talk • contribs) 20:08, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

I have removed the historical claims from the lead, where they were (as you say) confusing and contradictory. One problem with the article is that it never quite defines what it means by "macaroni and cheese". Is it any dish made with pasta and cheese? Or only those with a sauce involving cheese? --Macrakis (talk) 22:08, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

American categorization

@Velella: maybe Category:American cuisine is actually more appropriate for this page than Category:Soul food. The article discusses general U.S. history of the dish but not association with soul food. It seems to me like it's part of soul food because soul food draws on the broader U.S. cuisine. I would switch out the one category for the other, but thought I'd check in with you first. Ibadibam (talk) 19:21, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Isn't it already in the American pasta dishes category? Spudlace (talk) 20:38, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

I have no view on Category:Soul food. Perhaps I don't have a soul. My only concern was to not have super categories when there is already a sub-category.  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   21:26, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, Spudlace, I completely missed that! I withdraw my suggestion. Ibadibam (talk) 22:09, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

History section needs work

The history section is problematic since no proper sources provided for most of the pre-history section. Everything before the US sub-section is all based directly on interpretations of primary sources which really amounts to a kind of original research.

Making claims about something being "the first modern recipe" requires proper backing by a reliable secondary source. In this case, the claim about Raffald being first is demonstrably false. There's a recipe for "stewed macaroni" in Cajsa Warg's Swedish cookbook from 1755.[3] Only difference is that they're boiled beef broth or water and butter and are seasoned with mace and then stewed. It's possible that this is in fact the first "modern" recipe, but I seriously doubt it. It's far more likely that the dish was imported from France or Italy and then quite possibly via Germany or some other country.

Also, the claim about Hemings bringing the recipie to the US does not seem to be supported by sources. That he introduced the dish by being chef at Monticello is one of several theories about how the dish was disseminated in North America, but it's not the only one. Peter ^Isotalo 14:34, 19 April 2024 (UTC)