Talk:Macau Grand Prix

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Inclusion of winners

To give you my opinon, I say we should only include what is important, the winner of the main three races (F3, Guia and motorcycle), which the race have largely been centered on the most. If we add the GT Cup, which I doubt would last long like most support races, we may as well include winners of every support races there is that came and gone, inlcuding the Jackie Chan Cup, which is a Pro-Celebrity race. Donnie Park (talk) 21:28, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

If we to include these (less than significant and recently introduced) support races, especially the GT Cup which which replaced the Carrera Cup, which in turn replaced the Supercar race (which had a history spanning over 15 years); we may be well include the Interport and CTM race which had a longer history. Donnie Park (talk) 14:03, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Agree, F3 (or leading open wheel), Touring Car and leading Bike only. That's why the FBMW stuff got PRODed. --Falcadore (talk) 19:34, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

The 1983 race was won by Senna driving a Theodore Racing, this was a one off race, not his championship West Surrey Racing car he used in UK.

31.185.253.128 (talk) 13:41, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Formula Pacific from 1974?

Given that the first Formula Pacific race was run in New Zealand in 1977 (refer Formula Pacific) and that the Chronolgy page on the official website first mentions Formula Pacific in relation to the 1977 race (refer MGP Archive > Chronology > Decades of History) can we say that it was a Formula Pacific race from 1974? GTHO (talk) 23:52, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

This is part of why I don't like the use of the term Formula Brabham. It confuses the issue when you have two names for the same category. It was probably Formula Atlantic since many of Macau drivers and teams have travelled from Europe. In later years since the race dominated by cars no belonging to F-Pacific series why not retro-active back date the labelling of F-Pacific since it was the same regs. --Falcadore (talk) 00:20, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

According to http://www.oldracingcars.com/atlantic/ it looks like the Macau GP in 1974-76 didn't use any particular formula, but limited cars to 1600cc engines. Leaving it as Formula Pacific, given that that name didn't exist until 1977, is silly. I propose changing them to "Formula Libre (1600cc)", and will do so unless something better is suggested. A7V2 (talk) 03:45, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

While Formula Atlantic or Formula Atlantic plus invited cars is probably the correct answer, we should never invent something like Formula Libre (1600). If you don't know, then don't do it. --Falcadore (talk) 05:34, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Point taken, however I will say that calling it Formula Pacific, we are inventing history... From the "Old Racing Cars" link I sent it implies that the race wasn't run to any formula "Races in South East Asia were generally limited to 1600cc from 1973 onwards until the Macau GP formally adopted Formula Pacific in 1977". I am under the impression (and I say this with no particular confidence or justification) that if a race is run without any particular rules, just an engine restriction or something like that, then it would be Formula Libre. But I take your point, my suggestion is not the right answer, but neither is leaving it as-is. A7V2 (talk) 06:51, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

(added later) - Realistically, I think this is a bigger tangle than it's worth the time to untangle... After looking around I think trying to find a definite answer is a lost cause. The Malaysian Grand Prix article has similar questionable use of Formula Pacific, the Singapore Grand Prix article lists it as Formula Libre all years, and yet for the 1973 article it mentions the cars were Australian Formula Two?? On the MotorSportMagazine database, the Macau GP for 1974-82 is listed under "Non-championship Formula Pacific / Atlantic" here. And then in the Old Racing Cars article about Australian F2 it mentions Macau adopting "almost identical Formula Pacific in 1975", with NZ following in 1976. And in my Australian Motor Racing Yearbook 1981/82 there's an article about F Pacific that mentions NZ entering a "brave new world" by going it alone with "Formula Atlantic/Pacific". I think it's safe to conclude that it's all a muddled mess, so it doesn't really make all that much difference! A7V2 (talk) 07:49, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

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1969 race (Engine of winner)

I'm not at all convinced that Kevin Bartlett ran with an Alfa Romeo engine in 1969. On [1] there is a brief description of the history of the Mildren chassis, where it says that in early 1969, the car ran with an Alfa Romeo engine (specifically in the Tasman Series), and was then fitted with first a 1600cc Waggott engine for the Gold Star series (Australian driver's championship), and later (in 1969) a 1900cc Waggott. Unless I'm mistaken, the 1969 Macau Grand Prix took place on November 16, 1969, so it should have still had a Waggott engine, and I can't find a single online source which says it had an Alfa engine, but several which say it was a Waggott, including the official Macau Grand Prix website: [2], [3], [4]. I don't have access to the original Autosport article, but I'm speculating that given that the car ran with an Alfa Romeo engine in the Tasman Series earlier in the year they probably just made a mistake. A7V2 (talk) 12:18, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

It looks like you wrote. All online sources tells Waggot engine.Rpo.castro (talk) 14:04, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

The Mildren referred to in the oldracingcars.com article (as linked above) is the Rennmax-built, spaceframe car predominantly driven by Max Stewart. The Mildren that won the 1969 Macau Grannd Prix was an Alan Mann Racing-built, monocoque car predominantly driven by Kevin Bartlett. An image of the monocoque car, can be seen at primotipo.com. Note that the caption under the image reads "Kevin Bartlett won the Macau Grand Prix in 1969 in the Mildren Alfa ‘Sub’, here in the paddock....."

With regard to references for the car being Alfa Romeo-powered at the 1969 Macau Grand Prix, we have:

• a news item in Racing Car News, December 1969 indicating that Bartlett won the race "in the Mildren Alfa V8"
• the race report in Racing Car News, January 1970 in which Bartlett is stated to have driven "the Mildren Alfa", "the 2½-litre Mildren" and, in the results listing, a "Mildren Alfa V8"
• the race report in Autosport, 27 November 1969 which refers to the winning car as a "Mildren-Alfa V8", as the "Len Bailey-designed, Alan Mann-built Mildren-Alfa" and in the results listing as the "2.5 Mildren-Alfa V8"
• the Primotipo article (as linked above) which refers to the car at Macau '69, as "the Mildren Alfa ‘Sub’"

It looks to me like the compilers of the linked Internet tables (note that none of them are actually articles), are ill-informed.

GTHO (talk) 02:45, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for that GTHO. I was mainly concerned because sometimes the articles published straight after the race may include mistakes (especially if the program itself had a mistake), but given what you've said it looks like it's the modern websites which are incorrect. A7V2 (talk) 06:55, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

It's good that you raised your concerns. I have added additional references to the 1969 entry in the article. GTHO (talk) 09:58, 25 March 2019 (GMT)

Grand Prix Claim

The article claims that it is only one of two races that have the Grand Prix title that are non-Formula One. It claims that the New Zealand Grand Prix is the only other. Is there a reason why the Grand Prix of Pau is not included or is it a mistake that needs correcting? Nerdfighter Reed (talk) 09:59, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

On New Zealand Grand Prix it says "It is one of only two current national Grand Prix events that are not part of the Formula One World Championship, the other being the Macau Grand Prix." with a citation to a broken link of the New Zealand GP website. I don't know the details of the Grand Prix "title", but I'm quite sure that they are currently the only national Grand Prix which aren't Formula One races. A7V2 (talk) 10:21, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

But that presumes Macau is a nation, which is it not recognised as or claims to be. It is only a semi-autonomous region and is not a nation. I think that the quote "Along with the New Zealand Grand Prix, the race is one of only two non-Formula One events to receive the Grand Prix title." from the article is problematic even if we specify it as a national Grand Prix. Given this, would anyone be offended if I remove it until we can figure out what it is actually meant to say to ensure accuracy in the article? Nerdfighter Reed (talk) 11:39, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

I know I've definitely heard this "fact" thrown around by commentators and such quite a bit (I definitely remember the commentry mentioning it on the 2019 NZ GP broadcast at least once). Exact definitions asside, there's no denying that Macau is considered to be a country/nation in many contexts. It could be, for example, that what is meant by National Grand Prix is a GP organised by a national FIA representative, which Macau may well have. Anyway, I certainly don't have a problem with you removing the sentence from this article, since there's no citation anyway. A7V2 (talk) 22:49, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

1990s Macau government page

I found https://web.archive.org/web/19980612140337/http://www.macau.gov.mo/mac4/cartaz.html WhisperToMe (talk) 16:29, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Two different things

Does "Macau Grand Prix" refer to Macau Grand Prix race weekend or to Macau Formula Three Grand Prix? The article lede muddles the two. jnestorius^(talk) 10:28, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm raising this issue on WP:Motorsport -- Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Motorsport#Macau Grand Prix. At best, this article is suffering from an identity crisis. An example of wha happens when too many Wikipedia editors writes it. SpacedFarmer (talk) 15:42, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

It should refer to the weekend. The Grand Prix event itself can be F3 or motorcycle. RealSuperlemon (talk) 15:45, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

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Split/merge into other articles

SpacedFarmer proposed splitting this article at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Motorsport#. There didn't seem to be a clear consensus to split yet the article was split anyway. I have reverted the split and am starting this discussion in the correct venue to try and gain greater participation.

The proposals seem to be:

1. Split Macau Grand Prix#Motorcycles to Macau motorcycle Grand Prix
2. Split Macau Grand Prix#GT (Grand Touring) to Macau GT Cup
3. Merge Macau Grand Prix#Touring cars into Macau Guia Race
4. Merge Macau Grand Prix#Major accidents into Guia Circuit

Pinging participants at the previous discussion @SpacedFarmer, SSSB, Rally Wonk, A7V2, Rpo.castro, and Tvx1:. John B123 (talk) 20:24, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Neutral, but improvement is required as the identity crisis point raises in 'Two different things' above. The same conversation can be had on many X Grand Prix articles, is it a race or event? I oppose the notion that this article is only about the F3 race. Right now, this article suggests from the lead that cars and motorcycles go racing against each other. Messy. Rally Wonk (talk) 21:02, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Changed to Oppose. I think the separated articles would only ever serve as space for tables and records and repeated histories and basic facts about the event. After changing the structure of this article I now think only winners, records and stats should be split to Lists. However, neither a separate Macau GT Cup or records list is justified right now.

Guia Circuit could also move here and be condensed into meaningful bits without repeated histories. Circuit could also then host sub-heading of Major accidents with much of the useful context all on the same article page. Rally Wonk (talk) 17:27, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Support The reason why was as what Rally Wonk quoted (I raised this issue up in WP:Motorsport) - it has turned itself into an identity crisis article, it doesn't know what it wants to be.

I broke them off since earlier discussions in that group was being archived, thus being closed. So, I assumed this is going to since I was going to wind down my Wiki activities. This article should be about the title race, this includes the Formula Libre race before that, the Formula Pacific race after then the F3 and the F4 during the pandemic. Nothing else. This is why it is called the Macau GP, not the Macau Festival.

Calling MGP 'an event' is like calling each round of F1 and Moto GP 'an event'. The FIA GT World Cup is not called the MGP and never was in their history neither was the Guia Race, so why should it be integrated in the mainspace. The motorcycle GP is notable on their own too, so thus shoud be broken off on its own. This explains why I did it.

Being accused of being a mostly and open-wheel racing fan does not help the argument. Whilst I dislike F1, I suppose being a single-seater fanboy beats being a WEC neckbeard, you see them on the internet, on Racedepartment crying "golden era" out loud to argue their narrative.

I don't need any gaslighting about the suport races being mediatic or the race that gets more atention from the media and has more drivers known by readers and spectators [sic] because those other three are only notable because of TV coverages, only them, nothing else. Their coverages are also separate, if not insignificantly smaller. Also, it should be noted that in HK, they are not shown live anymore - all the races are squeezed into a single afternoon with the GP race being the only part screened live, the first week races is not shown on TV at all. Also, none but the F3 and motorcycle race is called the GP.

TL:DR I suggest delete all unsourced parts and break them into all 4 articles. Even Pau GP, as one editor mentioned, is also a mess. SpacedFarmer (talk) 10:07, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

"Calling MGP 'an event' is like calling each round of F1 and Moto GP 'an event'."

That's exactly what they all are officially, and commonly to many people. It's defined on paper at least by the FIA. The Macau Grand Prix event features the Formula 3 Macau Grand Prix race. Same with Monaco Grand Prix, British Grand Prix... Perhaps when 'big prize of the club' racing started they didn't have support races nor m/any formulas. But things have changed over time which IMO should be written about in these articles' histories.

Rpo.castro has many sources below that the support races belong to the MGP event. I'm looking for use of MGP to mean the F3 race but it always seems to be known as F3 World Cup at MGP, Formula 3 Macau Grand Prix - FIA F3 World Cup, The FIA Formula 3 World Cup Race @ the MGP, The Macau Formula Three Grand Prix is the main race (but feature photo of touring cars), etc.

There's no need to be defensive about what you have done, you did the right thing. But I think the negative comments don't need to reappear. Rally Wonk (talk) 16:31, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose, there is an identity crisis? Yes there is, that won't be solved with the split of the article. The article, especially the intro needs improvement, I think all people agrees with that. As for the identity, is Macau GP only a "title race" or an event? At very least it would be 2 races, F3 and motos. But with just doing quick search there are quite some relevant sources adding GT's to the mix For single-seater and GT racing aficionados, a painful four-year wait ends this week with the return of the FIA Formula 3 and GT World Cups to their rightful place at the Macau Grand Prix.[5], [6], All the winners of the previous five FIA GT World Cup editions are set to return to the Guia Circuit for the 70th running of the Macau Grand Prix to battle for their second victory in the world’s most prestigious competition for GT3 machinery [7], The GT race that forms part of the Macau Grand Prix meeting around the fast and technical 6.120-kilometre Guia street circuit [8] and More Macau Grand Prix history will be made this week (November 16-19) with the return of the FIA Formula 3 and FIA GT World Cups to the famous street racing event.[9], 3 of them from FIA website. What does the official website says: First run in October, 1954 as a club race for local motoring enthusiasts, the Macau Grand Prix has evolved into what many believe is the finest street circuit race meeting in the world. Here we look back at some of the highlights of the last 60 years. [10] Note that Macau GP begun as sports car race, not Formula, so making the article into F3 article doesn't make any sense. But keep going, the same official website says as for 2020 edition The 67th Macau Grand Prix ran from the 20th to 22nd of November 2020, during which five races were held on the world-famous Guia circuit, including the Formula 4 Macau Grand Prix, the Macau GT Cup, the Macau Guia Race, the Macau Touring Car Cup, and the Greater Bay Area GT Cup, bringing a thrilling car-racing extravaganza to residents and tourists alike. 2021: The 68th Macau Grand Prix, an annual international sports event of the city, was held from 19 to 21 November 2021 2022: The 69th Macau Grand Prix provided an opportunity for drivers to compete along the legendary 6.2-kilometre Guia Circuit across 7 races.[11] For the event organizers there is no identity issue: its annual international sports event of the city. For FIA there is no identity issue. The only problem is article introduction that needs improvement, not a split. Looking for MotoGP, take a look at Portuguese motorcycle Grand Prix for example. TThe Portuguese motorcycle Grand Prix is a motorcycling event that is part of the FIM Grand Prix motorcycle racing season. Results: all 4 categories: MotoGP, Moto2, Moto3, MotoE and previous (like 80cc, 125cc, 250cc and 500cc). Grand Prix of Long Beach looks a bit more like Macau GP saying its and IndyCar Race, but then you have "Other race winners". As for F1, going to F1 website, every single round is called Formula 1 sponsor + country Grand Prix + year like FORMULA 1 PIRELLI UNITED STATES GRAND PRIX 2024, so for Formula 1 there is no doubt neither, the Grand Prix is just about the F1 (races of F2 and F3 are called rounds, F2 round of Monte Carlo, not F2 GP of Montecarlo).Rpo.castro (talk) 12:23, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

There can only really be one Grand Prize per ASN/club, that's why you won't have F2 Grand Prix races alongside F1, but the F2 races still take place at Grand Prix events. Thus the name support races - they don't command their own events. Rally Wonk (talk) 16:46, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Can you split this into small paragraphs, how the fuck am I going to read this? SpacedFarmer (talk) 18:02, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Be polite. You often engage in this kind of behaviour towards people that don't support your POV. If you can't handle opinions different from yours, you should dedicate your time to other activities. I suggest fishing. Might be good for your temper. Rpo.castro (talk) 21:08, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

You know you need a fishing license to go fishing, don't you. Plus you need annual membership for that lake, what about equipment too, they cost 0000s and a car that is going to take all that space - wise advice indeed. I swear you never been fishing in your life, I have friends who does.

My point with your comment is that it is unreadable, why should it be valid when it is unreadable. SpacedFarmer (talk) 08:19, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

I'd put it the opposite way, why should a comment be invalid if, for whatever reason, you can't read it. --John B123 (talk) 21:57, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose - I don't think you can take any precedents from Wikipedia coverage of modern Grand Prix such as the British Grand Prix or British motorcycle Grand Prix. Historically, anybody could organise a race and call it a Gran Prix, the oldest such as Monaco predate formula racing and it was a race for any car somebody wanted to enter. The modern usage is a round of a World Championship, such as F1. Although they have support races, support is the operative word, none of them are World Championships so coverage of the F1 race only is justified. Its slightly different in the case of motorcycles as the championship is the 'FIM Grand Prix World Championship' which has 3 classes: MotoGP, Moto2 and Moto 3.

Most of the historic Grand Prix have either become defunct, such as the Donington Grand Prix, or taken on a world championship as the main race, such as the British Grand Prix. Most of the latter can be looked at as a franchise for the world championship series, with the championship giving different circuits within that country the 'grand prix'. In Britain since the introduction of F1 the British Grand Prix has been held at Aintree, Silverstone and Brands Hatch. Apart from the name, there is no connection to the original British Grand Prix held in pre-War years at Brooklands.

Macau is one of the few exceptions to the above, it has continued at the same venue and has not taken on a world championship race as its main race. From this perspective, it closer to the 24 Hours of Le Mans than a modern grand prix. On a side note, it may be unique in that when the touring car race was part of the World Touring Car Championship, a support race had a higher status than the headline race.

There's no doubt that the article needs work and is confusing as written, but I don't see that splitting off non-F3 parts solves the problem. In my view the article would cover the whole event, but with the biggest focus on the headline race. The other races also need to be covered. That said, I can see no objection to the other races having their own detailed articles provided an overview is retained within the MGP article. --John B123 (talk) 09:37, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

"Most of the latter can be looked at as a franchise for the world championship series, with the championship giving different circuits within that country the 'grand prix'."

"Apart from the name, there is no connection to the original British Grand Prix held in pre-War years at Brooklands."

@John B123 I disagree with some of your points, so would like to learn/clear up. Historically, each national Grand Prix is the 'big prize' of the ASN for that nation. The British Grand Prix has always been the Grand Prix of the Royal Automobile Club, now Motorsport UK since it was spun off, as they have always been the sole representative of Britain at the FIA. Each F1 World Championship event is not organised by the FIA, they approve it's inclusion into the calendar.

I think as time progressed there became no need/desire for a genuine 'big prize' race, and racing events and championships became commercial and needed to be; now Formula One claim 'Grand Prix' as IP, so organising a new, commercial one, even non-F1, might face challenges. These points proven in that there is no Turkish Grand Prix, for example, continuing without F1 visiting.

Anyway, Macau and Pau are historic. Macau is the grand prix of the AUTOMOBILE GENERAL ASSOCIATION MACAO-CHINA, and Pau the Grand Prix of ASAC BASCO BEARNAIS. First is a FIA member, thus the World cup/championship inclusions, but the second is not, showing really anybody can still organise a Grand Prix, not necessarily a national body. Rally Wonk (talk) 17:30, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

@Rally Wonk: The more you delve into it the more complex it becomes. Up until the 1980s the FIA's sporting arm, FISA at this time, organised the calendar, including which venues could hold F1 events. The independent (non-motor manufacturers) F1 teams set up FOCA and threatened to set up a rival championship in a dispute over monies paid to teams. To cut a long story short, the FIA transferred the commercial rights of F1 to FOCA in exchange for a 50% cut of the revenue raised by FOCA. These commercial rights included setting the calendar, choosing which venues were given races and what fee would be charged for the privilege of running an F1 race. FOCA evolved into FOM (Formula One Management) and by 2000 if you had enough money you could get a new Hermann Tilke designed circuit built, offer FOM a large fee for hosting an F1 race and get yourself a grand prix, hence my franchise comment.

The F1 teams have an agreement with FOM called the Concorde Agreement, which includes financial matters and runs for a fixed term. After this fixed term a new agreement is negotiated. In 2002 the manufacturers in F1 threatened to form a rival series, the Grand Prix World Championship (GPWC), when the current Concorde Agreement ended in 2007. To counter this FOM registered 'Grand Prix' as a trade mark, but this is only in relation to 4 wheel World Championships. MotoGP can therefore still use Grand Prix and so can Indycar as it is not a world championship. They also tried to register the names of existing GPs but were blocked (by the BRDC in the case of the 'British Grand Prix'). They did register names for GPs were not in existence at the time. I suspect this may be the case of why there is only a Turkish Grand Prix when an F1 race is run, FOM probably registered the name as a trademark before the Turkish Grand Prix existed. FOM continues to register trademarks for anywhere they think might potentially wish to hold an F1 race, earlier this year they put an application to trademark 'Chicago Grand Prix'. So you can probably call any race a Grand Prix providing it isn't part of a world championship and FOM haven't seen it as a potential F1 venue and registered the name. --John B123 (talk) 21:53, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Brilliant, thank you. Rally Wonk (talk) 11:34, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Is the Guia Circuit only used during the Macau Grand Prix event week? No need for two articles unless size becomes an issue, which it is not. Rally Wonk (talk) 11:31, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, since its a street circuit and it causes big problems with traffic (talks about changing the location have been taking place). In 2023 Macau GP was held through 2 weekends [12]. Rpo.castro (talk) 11:46, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Interesting that in the navboxes at the bottom of Guia Circuit, it is referred to as Macau.

But, unlike Donington Park for example, the history of the circuit and Macau will always be the same. Perhaps all the pages should be merged into this article, it would aid improvement. If it wasn't for all the results tables/lists, there is currently such little content to justify splits.

On results, another general notability point is pages like 1994 Guia Race of Macau which exist to host a table of results which can be found at the referenced source. They're found all over Motorsport Wikipedia, but is that, high-level, what Wikipedia is for?

I've come to notice recently, how bad racing Wikipedia articles are. Many flagship articles are in a terrible state with their warnings, so why have so many.Rally Wonk (talk) 12:26, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

The great thing about low quality Wikipedia articles is that it'll keep those YouTube parasites at bay (such as Mr. Millward). This is why you never get any of them talk about the MGP because this article is so terrible. I tried to help, only to get told to fuck off. SpacedFarmer (talk) 20:03, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

You tried to improve the article, but you didn't. You unilaterally made the decision that the Macau Grand Prix is the F4 race, not the weekend, despite there not being any conclusive evidence that this was the case. You were then reverted, because we disagreed with your unilateral conclusion. Instead of taking this personally (which it isn't), why don't you actually compromise and discuss a solution. SSSB (talk) 13:17, 2 May 2024 (UTC)