Talk:Macedonia in the Eurovision Song Contest 2008

Move request

F.Y.R. Macedonia in the Eurovision Song Contest 2008 → Macedonia in the Eurovision Song Contest 2008 — Per the new naming guidelines at WP:MOSMAC2. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:16, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

• F.Y.R. Macedonia in the Eurovision Song Contest 2006 → Macedonia in the Eurovision Song Contest 2006
• F.Y.R. Macedonia in the Junior Eurovision Song Contest → Macedonia in the Junior Eurovision Song Contest
• F.Y.R. Macedonia in the Eurovision Song Contest → Macedonia in the Eurovision Song Contest

Would it be more correctly to say Republic of Macedonia in the Eurovision Song Contest 2008? Is it self-evident that only countries participate there? I mean for people who do not know much about music in Europe. Anyway, I am neutral on this, I am just asking to understand better for future usage in other similar contexts where I meet with the term "Macedonia". Dc76\^talk 22:08, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Seems weird. Everything having to do with the contest uses FYR, from the media, to the on screen subtitles, to the show, etc. How can we just decide to name it something else that is not consistent with what is actually used at the contest? Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 20:23, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

From what I remember, the UK commentators in 2008 called the country plain "Macedonia" without mentioning any "former Yugoslav". The Australian commentators in 2009 also called it plain "Macedonia", mentioning nothing about the "FYR" that would appear on-screen. Basically they used common English usage rather than the ESC naming conventions. BalkanFever 03:06, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Oppose: Before forming an opinion, I checked the Eurovision website, where it lists it as "FYR Macedonia." Therefore, on the basis of that, I would oppose the move. - Epson291 (talk) 03:57, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Common guys, we have been through this already. The article should start: Republic of Macedonia, present in the contest under the name "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", selected their entry (...) and be named accordingly. No joke, if both sides are not willing to compromise even when there is a community consensus, then I am flaberggasted at the stubbornness. Dc76\^talk 04:44, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, we've been through this already: It's all settled at WP:MOSMAC2#Other page titles ("in all other cases, the article can be at 'X of Macedonia' [...] No special rules will be used for international organisations which use 'F.Y.R.'" and WP:MOSMAC2#International organisations ("The country will be referred to in these contexts in the same manner as it is referred to elsewhere on the project. Diverging naming practices used by the organisations themselves may be reported (for instance in parentheses after the first reference to the country, or in a footnote), but will not affect usage within the article.") So, plain "Macedonia" in the article title, because there isn't (and of course, cannot be) a competing article about Greek Macedonia. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:23, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

And WP:MOSMAC2 also is clear that since there is no possible ambiguity with any other Macedonia, then the first sentence should be "Macedonia, present in the contest...". I edited the text in complete accordance with WP:MOSMAC2. (Taivo (talk) 06:37, 13 July 2009 (UTC))

Well, if the Greek contestant were from Greek Macedonia and/or the Greek song had Greek Macedonian regional features, there would be a competing meaning. "R of M" would solve that. But I am not so knowleadgeable about Eurovision to know such details. So, I'll the others talk and work. Dc76\^talk 06:58, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Honestly, I'm disappointed people are treating this as if it was an opportunity to hash out the whole debate again from the start. Guys, we settled this. This is as straightforward a case of applying the rules as can be. If there should be some serious argument about whether this case falls under the scope of the guideline, bring it on, but please don't reopen the debate about whether you like the guideline or not. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:02, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

This should have been listed as an uncontroversial move at WP:RM so that an admin would have done it already. BalkanFever 07:04, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

(ec) A Greek contestant is from Greece, no matter which part of Greece. Eurovision is divided by countries. If a contestant were from Belgian Luxembourg, they would be identified as Belgian, not as "Belgian Luxembourgeois". It is a non-issue since the entire article is not about contestants from Greece, but about contestants only from Macedonia. WP:MOSMAC2 is crystal clear that in cases where there is no ambiguity (as there is no possible ambiguity here since the article is only about Macedonia), "Macedonia" is the name to be used. (Taivo (talk) 07:06, 13 July 2009 (UTC))

I agree with Balkan Fever, all these moves are not subject to consensus-building, but are dictated by WP:MOSMAC2. There is no controversy, but only the implementation of a refereed decision. (Taivo (talk) 07:06, 13 July 2009 (UTC))

Actually it is still a guideline interestingly, not a policy. As for the sudden opposition well WikiProject Eurovision and its editors have had only limited involvement in this dispute, so I am not surprised given this is probably the first time many editors are even aware what has been going on. I foresaw this so I left a note at WT:ESC but it looks like many editors missed it. Personally I have no problem with the articles being at Macedonia though I am too involved with the effected articles to be fully impartial on such a sensitive issue, so I will leave it to an independent admin to deal with it. Camaron · Christopher · talk 08:52, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, thanks for giving that notification at the WikiProject, and apologies for not doing it myself back at the time (we did notify a couple of affected wikiprojects, but apparently forgot this one) – but that just demonstrates that editors interested in the issue could and should have made their voice heard over at the MOSMAC2 RfC, which was open at the time. User:Grk1011, the author of your wikiproject's article guidelines, actually did, but was the only person to support the proposal that would have mandated the domain-specific use of "F.Y.R." (here). The idea was carefully considered in light of applicable policy, and rejected by a strong consensus. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:09, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

I considered participating but I was not sure what to believe, the concession of continuing to use EBU's F.Y.R. Macedonia in parentheses was enough to keep me happy, and it was clear that primarily using F.Y.R. was not going to get consensus, but I obviously can't speak for other editors. I have started a new thread on the issue at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Eurovision#Macedonia mass re-naming to help coordinate the re-naming. Camaron · Christopher · talk 09:19, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

I am afraid that those proposing and achieving consensus for Proposal A did not take into consideration certain implications, and the positive aspects of Proposal B: "except where it can be shown that a clear majority of reliable sources uses a divergent convention specific to one topic domain." I am a Eurovision fun of year, and I've watched the event in more than one languages. The problem is that in this particular sector; in this particular domain (EBU's contest) FYR Macedonia is used visibly by all the organizers, and orally by the presentators of both the contest and the television channels. All the Eurovision funs are primarily familiar with the F(ormer)Y(ugoslav)R(epublic) (of) Macedonia terminology, and in the past both ChrisO and Fut.Perf. were more lenient on this issue. I think that the one-size-fits-all solution of Proposal A was not so wise here. There should be some room both for consistency and flexibility, and with A this room is lost. By the way, why to use plain Macedonia here, when "Macedonia" is not even used in the country's article (Republic of Macedonia), and the other articles having in the title "... of Republic of Macedonia"? This looks to me both weird and inconsistent. It has to be either "Republic of Macedonia" or "FYR Macedonia".--Yannismarou (talk) 15:55, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

And no reference in the article of "FYR Macedonia" whatever title may be chosen, it makes no sense to me either. As I said every person watching the contest is visually familiar with "FYR Macedonia", and orally with "former ...".--Yannismarou (talk) 15:58, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

No, not necessarily - see my comment above about that. The rest is moot, as FP explains below. BalkanFever 16:16, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm open to discussing in what form best to present the explanation about "FYR" (on the wikiproject page, I've suggested there should be an explicit discussion and explanation of it in the main Macedonia in the Eurovision Song Contest article, and just a single brief note about it in the other "Macedonia in X year..." articles.) Other than that, what is this debate supposed to achieve? Are you seriously trying to reopen the whole discussion and get the guideline changed again? Sorry, won't happen. As for why to use plain "Macedonia": read the guideline. Because it doesn't conflict with any other article in this case and is therefore not ambiguous, that's why. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:11, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Just for brainstorming, I've just tried a little tweak putting the "FYR" note into the infobox. That's one of those rare situations where infoboxes really come in handy. Tweaks to layout and wording welcome; revert if you don't like it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:58, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

The point of ARBMAC2 was to settle the issue once and for all with the authoritative weight of Wikipedia behind it. WP:MOSMAC2 is the result. Now, MOSMAC2 is clear on wording within the article: Use "Macedonia" unless there is a possibility of ambiguity. There is no possible ambiguity in this article since the article is only about Macedonia's participation and not about any participation from Greece, Bulgaria, or Alexander's kingdom. Therefore, MOSMAC2 dictates that Macedonia will be called Macedonia here. There is a note that the contest officially calls it something else in the first sentence. That's quite enough. (Taivo (talk) 19:00, 13 July 2009 (UTC))

Comment: For me it seems abolutely fine to rename all articles to Macedonia only, as long as there is a description of the EBU naming rights in the first sentence of the article, which there is in (I think) all cases. So I say go ahead, especially considering that there is a guideline about Macedonian naming agreed upon. Sims2aholic8 (Michael) (talk) 19:16, 13 July 2009 (UTC)