Talk:Macedonian cuisine (disambiguation)

Merge discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

This proposal has been withdrawn due to the consensus for keeping the current article structure. --Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 14:37, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

I propose that the two articles be merged and the disambiguation page be eliminated. My reasoning includes:

1. These articles are about the same subject, ethnic Macedonian cuisine. cuisine from the region known as Macedonian.
2. The Macedonian cuisine (Greek) article is an unnecessary fork of the subject.
3. The Cuisine of the Republic of Macedonia is not an article, but a list of dishes without citations or sources. There is no other content.
4. According to the naming standards for country specific subjects that extend outside the country of origin, the name should be country + subject as opposed to subject of country. Almost all cuisine articles now follow this standard and these articles are some of the last to follow the latter formatting. The policy is Wikipedia:Naming conventions (country-specific topics). Per the policy: It is important to be able to differentiate when a topic is actually country-specific. Often what may look like a country adjective is really describing a set of people or a language. Notice that "Polish" may mean "From or related to Poland" or "referring to the Polish people or language." For example Polish language, Polish people, even Polish literature (since these articles most often deal with the literature of the set of people, not the country necessarily). By contrast, Culture of Poland, Politics of Poland and Economy of Poland are all describing the country itself. Since cuisine can be found in geographical areas outside of the country itself the Country topic is the appropriate name for the article.

--Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 20:51, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose They are not about the "same subject of Ethnic Macedonian cuisine" because it just so happens that the Greek Macedonians are Greeks. This suggestion is insulting to both peoples. Greek Macedonians and RoM are two different peoples. Please read relevant history of the region before making such claims. Dr.K. (logos) 23:16, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose. This a clean-cut case of wikipedia:Disambiguation. Xuz (talk) 23:27, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

• Comment - I misspoke, I meant to say regional cuisine of Macedonia (region), I have corrected the proposal. Now, please understand that the majority cuisine articles are not about peoples but regions from which the cuisine style originates. This is not about ethnic backgrounds, nationalities or religions but how the regions' cuisine originated. I am not out to insult the Greeks and Macedonians who live there, but to condense these article which cover the same region into a single article covering the area defined in the Macedonia (region) article. --Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 03:41, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Ok. No problem. But as Zlerman commented below the regional cuisine is not a good idea. It's like mixing apples and oranges. So we must find some other accomodation. I know this is a silly topic to have yet another regional dispute on but here we are. Dr.K. (logos) 06:30, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

It was done with Chinese cuisine; remember the Chinese are not one monolithic culture, but half a dozen ethnic groups with different languages and traditions that only coalesced in the past century. Cantonese, Mandarin, Mongolian etc are all separate... --Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 07:40, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid this is not even close. China is at least a country. There is no chance anyone is going to coalesce with anybody else in this case. Neither is Greek Macedonia ever going to be part of any other country other than Greece. No parallels here. Dr.K. (logos) 08:04, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

• I do not think this is a logical merge: just look at the names of dishes -- they are in two different languages. It is as if we were to merge Israeli cuisine with Palestinian cuisine, because they both are from the same (very compact) region. Still, the situation cannot be left as is. Perhaps Macedonian cuisine (Greek) should be incorporated as a section in Greek cuisine and then we can think about a proper name for Cuisine of the Republic of Macedonia (it cannot stay in its present form). If we keep the dab approach, then a possible fork is Macedonian cuisine (Greek) and Macedonian cuisine (Republic of Macedonia) (or something similar). --Zlerman (talk) 04:34, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
• Comment. This is indeed a very complex issue not only because of the ambiguity of the word "Macedonian" regarding statehood but also regarding ethnicity: The Republic is multiethnic, and so is Greek Macedonia (to a certain extent). So there will be several flavours of cuisine, depending on the ethinc origin as well as the country. For example, there will be similarities between the cuisine of Salvic Macedinians (and their descendants) living in the Republic and in Greece, but also between inhabitants of Greek Macedonia from Greek and from Slavic (and Pontic) descendance, the latter because of reciprocal influence. I cannot give any details because I am ignorant in the subject, but I am sure that there are editors who are knowledgable. I originally promoted the merge but now I am very sceptical about it.  Andreas  ^(T) 14:49, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
  • I completely agree Andreas. Plus this discussion is currently split and taking place in two different articles. This is getting bizarre. Dr.K. (logos) 16:40, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment: In addition to all other non sequiturs and inventions, this merge suggestion is in violation of Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Macedonia-related articles). Quote:

Naming of articles relating to the Republic of Macedonia Use "Republic of Macedonia"

Dr.K. (logos) 21:21, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Just an aside, that policy is not a valid policy as there was no consensus for adopting it. --Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 04:38, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

I am withdrawing the proposals due to the presumed consensus forming. How ever I would like to suggest that the articles get the following treatment:

1. Cuisine of the Republic of MAcedonia be moved to the redirect page, with an {{Also}} at the top pointing to the greek cuisine article.
2. The Macedonian (Geek) article be folded into the Greek Cuisine article as a section.

This would eliminate these issues. --Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 04:38, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

This, among other things, is also a naming dispute issue. While it is true WP:MOSMAC is not an accepted policy AFAIK it is widely followed at least unofficially in the relevant circles (Macedonia related issues). If we move Cuisine of the Republic of Macedonia, as you suggest, to Macedonian cuisine by eliminating the Greek component, silly as it sounds or not, automatically we enter into the Macedonian naming dispute by equating RoM to Macedonia at least in the culinary field. This equation, as I understand it, should be avoided for obvious reasons even in something as mundane as cuisine. Dr.K. (logos) 05:03, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

To use Zlerman's apt analogy you can understand what would happen if Palestinian cuisine moved into the Arab cuisine article and Israeli cuisine was redirected from Cuisine of Palestine. I don't know if these articles exist or not but I think you follow what I am trying to say. If there can be ping pong diplomacy so must cuisine diplomacy be followed very carefully as well. Dr.K. (logos) 05:18, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 14 February 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page at this time. Please feel free to revisit this after the RfC is completed. Dekimasuよ! 03:27, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

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Macedonian cuisine (disambiguation) → Macedonian cuisine

Republic of Macedonia was moved to North Macedonia. --Sharouser (talk) 02:23, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Comment This proposal is effectively a multi-move, as it would require moving the article currently at Macedonian cuisine to a new title such as North Macedonian cuisine. Certes (talk) 11:25, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

There is also Ancient Macedonians#Dining and cuisine. 178.164.162.144 (talk) 17:38, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

• Wait We need wait for the RfC at WP:MOSMAC first. IMO, if I am not mistaken, the adjective for North Macedonia's Cuisine is "Macedonian" and the Prespa agreement didn't change that fact. -- ✿ SilentResident ✿ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 02:57, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
• Wait per SilentResident: this multi-move is even wider than I thought. Certes (talk) 03:02, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
• Cuisine of ethnic minorities in North Macedonia is also North Macedonian cuisine. --Sharouser (talk) 06:21, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
• Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Macedonia)/2019 RFC. --Sharouser (talk) 06:22, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 30 December 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. There is consensus against this requested move. (non-admin closure) qedk (t 桜 c) 20:26, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

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• Macedonian cuisine (disambiguation) → Macedonian cuisine
• Macedonian cuisine → Macedonian cuisine (North Macedonia)
• Greek Macedonian cuisine → Macedonian cuisine (Greece)

– Right now, this disambiguation page (which in my view conveys important information) is essentially inaccessible. 'Macedonian cuisine' links directly to the page about the cuisine of North Macedonia and neither that page nor the Greek Macedonian cuisine page links here. The current setup also limits the accessibility of the Greek Macedonian cuisine page by calling it by the non-standard name 'Greek Macedonian cuisine' (a term which I could not find anywhere on the internet except that article and its clones), rather than by the name by which it is commonly known, including in the article itself, which is 'Macedonian cuisine'. Renaming 'Macedonian cuisine' to 'North Macedonian cuisine' is unacceptable as per WP:MOSMAC, while 'Cuisine of North Macedonia' (as per (Cinema of North Macedonia, Music of North Macedonia etc.) also appears to have been rejected, apparently for reasons of consistency with other cuisine pages. It seems to me that the best solution is thus to name the articles 'Macedonian cuisine (North Macedonia)' and 'Macedonian cuisine (Greece)', with 'Macedonian cuisine' being this disambiguation page. This reflects the fact that both the cuisine of North Macedonia and the cuisine of northern Greece have the same name (Macedonian cuisine), both in common use and according to Article 7 of the Prespa Agreement, while disambiguating properly between the two. Kkyriakop (talk) 23:07, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

• Support alternate move - Move Macedonian cuisine to North Macedonian cuisine and Greek Macedonian cuisine to Macedonian cuisine per the country's current name of North Macedonia. Disambiguation should be deleted per WP:TWODABS, so it doesn't require a move._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 16:05, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Going with the proposal of User:Tbhotch that the disambiguation should become primary and Macedonian cuisine be moved to North Macedonian cuisine, per WP:NOPRIMARY._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 00:51, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

• Support alternative. Macedonian cuisine (disambiguation) → Macedonian cuisine, Macedonian cuisine → North Macedonian cuisine, and leave Greek Macedonian cuisine as it is now, per WP:NATURALDIS. © Tbhotch^™ (en-3). 02:11, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
• The North Macedonia might qualify as primary (1,248 v 150 [[1]]) therefore meaning that we should delete this DAB per WP:2DABS and archive this discussion to Talk:Macedonian cuisine, if not then support moving the DAB to the base name with no comment on where the articles go. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:40, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

• I would argue that these numbers are misleading, as the current set-up has made Greek Macedonian cuisine very difficult to reach (the link at the top of the 'Macedonian cuisine' page was only added very recently, and since then views have increased considerably.) Further, as per WP:2DABPRIMARY, 'Incoming pageviews are not the be-all and end-all of the determination; sources are more important.'Kkyriakop (talk) 17:55, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose any move of Macedonian cuisine. Prima facie evidence is still that it's the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC by a large margin. No matter what the official name of the country is now, the plain adjective still refers to the country with overwhelmingly larger frequency in real life than to an obscure sub-national region in the neighboring country. I'm in fact not even convinced Greek Macedonian cuisine fulfills the notability criteria to have an article of its own in the first place; it's almost entirely unsourced. No objection to deleting the dab page per WP:TWODABS. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:18, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

• Regardless of whether it's primary, the title is inaccurate, and it should be moved for that reason alone. At the very least it should be moved to North Macedonian cuisine even if the Greek page is not moved at all._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 00:59, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

• No, there's nothing inaccurate about it. "Macedonian" has been and still is the appropriate and most commonly used adjective to refer to the culture in question. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:21, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

• An article simply titled "Macedonian cuisine" is much too ambiguous, so unless Macedonia ceases to be a disambiguation page, it should be titled something else._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 00:45, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

• The 'obscure sub-national region' of Macedonia has a larger population, a greater GDP and receives more annual visitors than the country of North Macedonia and its cuisine is distinct within Greek cuisine. Many of the Macedonia-specific foods mentioned in the article (Florina peppers, frappe, bougatsa, manouri etc.) have their own Wikipedia articles and are quite popular internationally. The idea that Macedonian cuisine fails notability criteria seems to be completely unfounded to me. Both the 'Macedonian cuisine' and the 'Greek Macedonian cuisine' articles are largely unsourced as of me writing this but this can be fixed.Kkyriakop (talk) 17:07, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

• The Macedonian cuisine article says in its very first sentence that it elaborates on the cuisine of North Macedonia. What is the more appropriate name for it depends on what is the name with which Wiki articles refer to the citizens of the country. Idk whether that is "Macedonian" or "North Macedonian". On the Greek Macedonian cuisine article, it should either be kept with its current name or merged to an article of a broader related topic. One of the proposed names, Macedonian cuisine (Greece), is in my view confusing as it might very easily be interpreted as the name of an article dedicated to the cuisine of the Slavic-speaking minority in Greece. Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:34, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose moving the two pages, support removal of dab page. The proposer says that this disambiguation page ... conveys important information. That is clearly not the case, since it only contains links to two pages, no other information. Per WP:TWODABS it is therefore unnecessary, since the disambiguation just as well can be solved by hatnotes (as it already is). Of the two articles, the one connected to North Macedonia seems to be rather obviously primary, so the current article titles are fine. --T*U (talk) 14:31, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

• Even with just the two links and without the third meaning of Ancient Macedonian cuisine (which I added as per a suggestion by someone else on the Talk page), WP:TWODABS still requires a disambiguation page in the event of WP:NOPRIMARY, which I believe is clearly the case here. Even if we do hold North Macedonian cuisine to be the primary topic, I still think this page is necessary due to the complexity of the terminology involved in this case (i.e. 'Macedonian' being the adjectival reference to a country called North Macedonia and 'Macedonia' being a region of Greece that doesn't contain North Macedonia. To most people, this stuff will not be obvious and a disambiguation page explaining the different meanings of the word can help bring clarity). As per WP:TWODABS], disambiguation pages with two items are also allowed if there are other meanings of the word that could come up in the future (such as for instance the cuisine of Macedonia (region)). Kkyriakop (talk) 17:44, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

• Comment the proposed titles would imply to many people that the Greeks (and Slavs) of "South" Macedonia and the Slavs of North Macedonia have two versions of the same cuisine, which is specific to them (i.e. not merely the commonalities of the whole burek-Turkish coffee-tzatziki-etc Balkan cuisine). I'm not sure if that was intended... --Calthinus (talk) 21:44, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

• This is a good point. It wasn't intended in that sense, no. Do you have an idea of how to resolve this? The North Macedonian cuisine vs. Greek Macedonian cuisine option proposed above seems to be the most reasonable to me but I'm concerned it may violate WP:MOSMAC. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kkyriakop (talk • contribs) 20:24, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

Macedonian Greek regional cuisine and Macedonian cuisine (North Macedonia)? --Calthinus (talk) 22:01, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

• Strong oppose all. There is no evidence at all provided that "Macedonian cuisine", as a term in English, is commonly used to refer to the Greek cuisine versus the NM one. The Greek page's title as it stands is appropriate and naturally distinguished. Pageviews suggest primacy for the NM cuisine. Red Slash 23:52, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose all and leave the current status quo intact, per Red Slash. The current terminology reflects common usage in English.  — Amakuru (talk) 18:17, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per Fut.Perf. comment! — Tom^(T2ME) 18:31, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.