Talk:Madonna of the Dry Tree

our lady in the oak

What is the "our lady in the oak" image, is it a painting or a photo of a sculpture, It makes no sense to me. How does it relate to the subject? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.178.227.62 (talk) 06:58, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Trees

There's a lot in one of the sources about the tradition of hanging Marian images from trees and there's speculation that this might be a depiction of an actual tree Christus painted when he joined the confraternity. I've added a little about trees but there's a lot more. Worth adding the rest? Victoria (tk) 22:23, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Work

Apologies for all the edits - was trilled to see your additions yesterday but hadn't properly gone through the page in 18 months, and wanted a thorough read through before looking again at all the source info you have gathered in the ENA sandbox. Think Anselme Adornes is worth further looking into, which will do, and have bought a few other books in last year that go over the painting. I might now start importing more of your notes if thats ok. Ceoil (talk) 21:50, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

ps, as you have done all the heavy lifting in gathering and summarising the sources permalink to sandbox, can you keep and eye for a few weeks as they are incorporated. I understand your interest /energy wax and wains and don't want to put pressure, however take these edits as me catching up with your research; we have a shared fascination with this painting's oddness. Ceoil (talk) 22:51, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Your edits are really useful so no apologizing. Yesterday I found the folder, wanted to locate a book, read a paragraph in it, and planted it here. None of it was planned except to clear my computer desktop. I think I can keep at it if I read a paragraph every few days and then edit directly into the article, bypassing the sandbox for a while. Sometimes the sheer volume of the research is overwhelming and seemingly creates too much pressure. And yes, I wax and wane (am about to log out as the wane is here now), so this could take a very long time. That said, it already looks better. So that's rewarding. Victoria (tk) 23:06, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

As ever you are free to revert any changes additions, etc, and I see you already did with a few; but looking agree with each of your choices. As usual. Nothing changes over time, world stays the same, eh? Ceoil (talk) 23:22, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Ditto re changing reverting etc. Yes, nothing changes. And it's fun. The most fun I've had here for a while. Victoria (tk) 23:25, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Same here. Fun. Sorry if it felt like stepping on your toes, with all the multiple edits and what not. Still getting back to grps, and looking at book acquisitions. Fr now am interested in robbing your sources on descriptions of the tree, but its late and concentration is fading. Best. Ceoil (talk) 23:29, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes, fading. Tomorrow, if all goes well, I can send on the pdfs I have and will post links to the Ainsworth books here - they're fully viewable on g-books or at the Met. Victoria (tk) 23:32, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

The pdfs would be great, my laptop died a few weeks back, so lost the link to the jstor free pass. Also, the eircom email is long dead...so gmail (which I only have on ipad (as now an old befuddled man))!!! Will send scans re book sources. Ceoil (talk) 23:44, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Losing a laptop seems to equate to losing all kinds of work and links; it took me a while to recover when mine died - I've only recently found the folder with the dry tree materials and then lost it again and then found it again a few days ago. I've not yet figured out how Jstor works these days. Will send pdfs later today to gmail. Are you doing all of your editing on an iPad? If so, that's impressive. Victoria (tk) 12:46, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Also, have added to the lead "Because of its late discovery it is relatively understudied by art historians". This is true. I'm not seeing how this can ever be a long article, given the currently published sources; at least in English. Ceoil (talk) 23:59, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes, that's apparently true. If my memory is correct one or two of the pdfs are long-ish, but in general there aren't many sources. Victoria (tk) 12:46, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Ainsworth g-book links here: one has info in re the confraternity & a entry re the painting[1]; this has info re the confraternity, [2]. Victoria (tk) 20:33, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Upton g-book link here:[3]. Victoria (tk) 21:13, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

• If you have reasonable internet, JSTOR is for now continuing its COVID policy of 100 free articles a month. Just go to any article page and "register" - very simple, rather like on WP. Johnbod (talk) 12:58, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

  Thanks for that Johnbod, it's useful to know. Are downloads available or is it read only mode? Victoria (tk) 20:07, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Have ordered the Colin Eisler book (usually takes about 3 weeks for delivery), and the Friedländer book is free as a pdf online: or at least had a copy around 2 years ago. Will post link here when found again. Ceoil (talk) 20:08, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

ok, got the pdfs and many many thanks!!! From looking at their citations, think we have all the main sources covered. There are more in Dutch and German, but are seemingly well covered/summarised in the English sources established here. This is necessarily going to be a short article; its currently 1,446 words and can't see it going beyond 2,000, which is fine; it will be concise and to the point, maybe like his Portrait of a Young Girl that you reviewed all those years ago ;) Ceoil (talk) 22:39, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

Glad you got them. Van der Velden is fairly comprehensive re there were trees made of silver in the confraternity chapel, probably an actual tree outside, and there's an interesting tradition of establishing chapels in places where trees existed w/ saints carved into/onto the bark. Maybe that's all irrelevant; can't tell at the moment and probably never knew how much to put into this article. Also he disagrees w/ some of the more common interpretations but can't remember off the top of my head why. That might be worthy of inclusion. Anyway, need to break for a few days. Victoria (tk) 00:17, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

Ok, hope all is well Ceoil (talk) 00:37, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

A bit tied up for a few days. To your question re extant triptych, yes there's Pieter Claeissens the Younger's triptych which I believe is still in the church (I remember trying to find an image for it) and the argument is that Christus's informed the iconography of the latter or vice versa. My notes say there are 16 pages about this in Van der Velden, so a bit of dense reading, but it probably needs a mention. Victoria (tk) 16:39, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

Found it and to the left now. Also, without wanting to be a bore, always loved this album cover, but never made the connection until this weekend. Ceoil (talk) 17:18, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

St. Walburga Church (Bruges), 17th century triptych by Pieter Claeissens the Younger

Central panel has a Madonna in a tree - see p. 91 of van den Velden. Can't remember where that triptych is but off the top of my head I think it's in a church in Bruges. Will try to get to that pdf as soon as I have time. Interesting re the album cover. Victoria (tk) 18:22, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

Found it! Image of center panel here. It's at a church in Bruges. Victoria (tk) 23:25, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Thoughts

I've not done any proper research in the art books or JSTOR, but in case it is helpful, I wonder if there is more to say about the tradition of the Dry Tree?

My initial thought was "this sounds like one of the revered trees from Tolkien" (eg Telperion - see imagined arms of Gondor below) and then I see there is a link to the story of Alexander the Great and the Dry Tree at the Battle of Issus, as depicted in the Alexander Mosaic (see the "dry tree" in the background, left of centre), and also mention of a biblical "dry tree" on the hill of Mamre near Hebron as reported in the c.1350s Travels of Sir John Mandeville, and then conflation with the oracular trees of the sun and moon that Alexander is also said to have visited, as illustrated for example in 1444 below, with a phoenix.

Ah! So, the Dry Tree is symbolic of resurrection, like the phoenix? (I am not making this up! Some sources: British Library)

And then this painting is c.1460s.

And then we have the 1620 triptych by Pieter Claeissens the Younger, with its extraordinary womb-like mandorla formed by the branches of the tree (if womb is the right word, some female anatomy for sure; apologies for dragging down the tone, but it is a mother and child). Are there other examples, or did this tradition just die away?

Another thought is that the Madonna and Child look like they are guarded within the tree, like a hortus conclusus within a thorny hedge, eg the roses of Martin Schongauer from 1473: see French article.

I'm not suggesting direct inspiration, but are they drawing from common pr parallel traditions?

Sorry, my mind is firing off wildly in all directions. Perhaps this is all nonsense. I'll try to come up with some sources. Theramin (talk) 00:07, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

• 
  Nimloth, on the imagined arms of Gondor
• 
  Alexander Mosaic, 1st century BC
• 
  Trees of Sun and Moon and Dry Tree, 1444
• 
  "Onze-Lieve-Vrouw van de Droge Boom", Pieter Claeissens the Younger, 1620
• 
  fr:La Vierge au buisson de roses, Martin Schongauer, 1473
• 
  Madonna in the Church
• 
  Tree of Jesse, 17th century
• 
  Ivory panel from Bavaria, c.1200

Hi Theramin, nice gallery! Thanks for putting it together. There's this oddity too. Unfortunately I can't read the associated text. I've always had difficulty with the scope of this article because there is a lot written about the dry tree motif. On a recent re-read of the sources there seems to be some disagreement among art historians re Claeissens triptych File:PM 129808 B Brugge.jpg It does need to be mentioned, it does seem to be associated with the Confraternity of the Dry Tree, but beyond that, there is much is speculation. One art historian, I believe it's Upton, points out that Claeissen's tree is not technically dry or thorny, but rather the leaves are shaped into the arch and the iconography differs significantly from Christus's. There will be more about that painting once I've reread the very long pdf about it. I need to re-read all of the sources about trees and then we can decide what to keep here.

I'm wondering if we have enough information for a Dry Tree (motif) article? Especially given Tolkien's tree motif, which clearly runs throughout the trilogy. The other interesting thing is that there were trees with faces of saints carved on them, usually placed at crossroads (in lieu, I suppose, of a Fingerpost). I've not seen anything written about it, but the description of pagan trees with faces remind me of the weir wood trees the godswoods in the Game of Thrones, i.e the "old gods and the new". So there is a lot in concept but how much to put here is the question. Above Ceoil mentions trying to keep the article at around 2000 words and my inclination is to agree and to keep it tightly focused on this painting only. Victoria (tk) 16:58, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

Hi. You are most welcome. I've added in the Berlin Van Eyck that I think Upton mentioned as a parallel for the Madonna and Child here: similar if reversed pose and style of clothing, but this is much simpler, like a nativity.

I'm sure you and Ceoil are deep into the sources, so please excuse my blundering about, but I see some of the points I've mentioned above in the article already, from sources such as Van der Velden and Upton and Ainsworth. Can I throw this one into the mix: [4] And this 1636 coin [5] although the earlier seals would be better. And also the articles in other languages, for example fr:Confrérie Notre-Dame de l'Arbre Sec and nl:Onze-Lieve-Vrouwe ter Eik. (Some interlanguage links using {{ill}} would be good here, if we don't have English counterparts.)

I've still not got this straight in my mind, and the answer may well be that the different strands of iconography are mixed up, and we will never know what Petrus Christus meant anyway, but there seems to be something to say about wayside statues displayed in trees, and the Tree of Jesse (illustrations added) and the Immaculate Conception, and the tree of knowledge and the tree of life (paralleling the common idea that St Anne was barren, but immaculately produced Mary, and so life to all through Christ; with the neat reversal of "AVE" (Maria) and "EVA", known at the time). Also the Christ-child is starting here in one tree, like a crown of thorns, prefiguring the end of his life reigning from another tree (indeed, in one story, the True Cross was made from a tree grown from wood or seeds taken Seth from the Garden of Eden, and planted on Adam's grave.)

Yes, you are probably right that this article should try to keep to the image without getting too distracted by the background. (One of my failings, I am afraid.) We already have Dry Tree and if there is more to say, perhaps it belongs there, or at the redlinked Confraternity of Our Lady of the Dry Tree?

That image you have linked is the miraculous sculpture of "Our Lady on the Stick" (or Stock) from Antwerp, mentioned in Van der Velden, p.104, with a different illustration on p.106. The text on the image seems to be referring to 1124 when Burchard was Bishop of Cambrai ("Kamerijk" in Dutch) (incorrectly, Van der Velden says: he dates the sculpture much later). If I can believe Google's translation, that Dutch article seem to be discussing the organisational structure of the Catholic church in the Low Countries, and inter alia explains that the Dry Tree confraternity was largely beyond episcopal control.

I've distracted you enough. I look forward to seeing this gem polished to an even higher sheen. Theramin (talk) 23:18, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

Hi Theramin, no not a distraction at all. Instead it's thought provoking. Thanks for the link to Gusik's book. I'll take a look at the pages I can see there - the snippets look fascinating. Thanks also for finding the image of the coin. I had been looking for one of those.

I won't get back to this for at least another week, perhaps longer. I'll continue on the track I was on, building up here based on the sources I have, but you raise some important points that I'd put off until rereading Van den Velden - i.e how much to put in this article. A solution might be to add more than we thought we needed and then trim back down as needed. To some extent that's what I was doing in the confraternity section: writing more than needed with the thought that we might spin out a separate Confraternity of Our Lady of the Dry Tree page by lifting out what we have here. Will continue reading and continue thinking about it. Your points are well taken & the gallery is lovely. Ceoil, do you have thoughts? Victoria (tk) 23:47, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

The context added by Theramin sheds a lot of light on what is, to at the very least least, a very enigmatic and seemingly one-off painting. Would be in favour of including what we can find initially, then trimming back per Victoria, ideally into a dedicated article on the sect. Ceoil (talk) 21:12, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Sorry Ceoil, a bit late here! I just read your comment. Yes, agree. I've been a little distracted and absent but will try to get back here, but I do think that Theramin brings up good points & will have to re-read the Van der Velden pdf, which goes into meticulous detail re tree/dry tree iconography. Victoria (tk) 20:57, 7 June 2021 (UTC)