Talk:Madurai/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

maqbara.com

I have removed citations that use this website as a source. There are a couple of reasons for this:

1. There is absolutely nothing on that website, or at WHOIS, to verify that it is the official site for the mosque. Indeed, as things stand it could just as easily have been published by myself (better by me, in fact, as the design is a bit "bleurgh" !)
2. Even if there was some means of verification, information such as this should surely be available from multiple independent sources, per WP:V and WP:RS. Reliance on the site, which someone has claimed in an edit summary is in fact official, is not a great way to substantiate the statements in question.

I would appreciate it if someone could find better sources. - Sitush (talk) 21:49, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Adding better sources. Amjath123 (talk) 10:32, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry but bizlist is not a better source. They mirror content from Wikipedia. We need a book. - Sitush (talk) 11:08, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Reverted as you requested.

1) maqbara.com is not a blog and that exclusively speaks about the mosque and maqbara complex. I guess it should be maintained by the mosque or maqbara or someone who is well aware of that. I guess we can't simply neglect taht as unreliable. 2) I have read in books, but those doesn't bear a ISBN number. Of course, that are of very old edition that, they were published before ISBN was brought into effect. I think a book would not add value to wikipedia without the ISBN number. 3) I can add a multimedia link about the mosque from a renowned state newspapaer. the audio in that says it being the 2nd oldest in Tamilnadu. 4)indica.co.in is another i hvae added. you are comments are welcome. Amjath123 (talk) 11:48, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Pls go through this. http://books.google.co.in/books?id=Ovxq8enmRKUC&pg=PA52&dq=kazimar&hl=en&sa=X&ei=a3cNT5WgHsbRrQe8ufCqBA&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=kazimar&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amjath123 (talk • contribs) 11:53, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

A website does not have to be a blog to be unreliable/unauthoritative, and I am not too convinced about using news sources for this sort of information because they often just parrot whatever they are told. Your last link above seems to be a good one (being published by Routledge) & it says something slightly different. Let's see what else turns up. Thanks for your efforts. - Sitush (talk) 12:12, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

• (Just passing through:) I agree with Sitush on the maqbara website. The book looks very useful. I have not looked at the other source mentioned here. Drmies (talk) 15:13, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

I am planning to re work on the section gain. Its widely known and mostly written in the books (might not contain ISBN number) that it is the 2nd oldest mosque in tamil nadu.

Also, on what basis, maqbara.com site can't be taken here.? It cannot be unreliable just because a user says and the other agrees to that. Amjath123 (talk) 09:47, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Please read the first message in this thread. Please do not reinstate maqbara.com. Please do not reinstate the "second oldest" statement unless you can support it with reliable sources. - Sitush (talk) 10:57, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Read that message. maqbara.com is good looking in its relaibility. No issues with the site. Amjath123 (talk) 10:11, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, if you think it looks good then I think you need to read WP:RS. No way is that site (in its current form) going in this article. - Sitush (talk) 10:15, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

@ Amjath, thanks for taking up and bringing in the book reference. @Sitush, Can you be more specific on how this site doesn't fit into that. As you mentioned early, like whois info showing a websolution company name, i am not seeing that to be the reason for disqualification with respect to WP:RS. Wasif (talk) 12:09, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, but is anyone reading what I write? See #2 of my original message, read WP:RS, WP:PRIMARY and WP:SPS ... and note that there is nothing on the website or at whois which indicates that the site is official. Give me a couple of hours and I'll create one showing that the mosque is the newest in India - and how could you possibly dispute it using the logic that appears to be de rigeuer here? If you can find a decent book (not Lonely Planet etc) that confirms the point then fine and good, otherwise we stick with what we have. - Sitush (talk) 12:47, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Give me a couple of hours and I'll create one showing that the mosque is the newest in India. is this ready.? Amjath123 (talk) 14:23, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Tamil in the lead

Hi, Went through the discussions in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Noticeboard_for_India-related_topics/Archive_48#Native_languages_in_lead. The discussion there is applicable only when there is a conflict of what langugae to be used and particularly for the Personalities and not for the cities. Moreover, we dont have any language conflict here and its not a wikipedia policy that mandates not to put lead. Wasif (talk) 11:36, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

The consensus was to remove Indic scripts from the lead agreed, but there were user who added Telugu, Kannada and malayalam to various articles including Chennai, Coimbatore, etc. Hence, it was removed. I think User:Sodabottle should comment here first. --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 21:25, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

The consensus was to remove scripts from all India related articles irrespective of a conflict. — Abhishek  ^Talk 05:09, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

But it still remains in articles of movies. And in a related case, on Tamil Nadu. --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 05:12, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Well mass removal was what the admin asked to avoid, maybe remove it in a span of 4–6 months since the consensus. As and when you come across an article you have never edited and see the scripts, you can just remove them. — Abhishek  ^Talk 05:18, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

The consensus was simply to remove scripts, nothing more, nothing less. The closing admin noted the consensus here. I think its in plain and simple English. Lynch7 05:32, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

The fact that it still remains on many articles doesn't mean that the consensus is not clear; it means that we're just not removing them en masse. Lynch7 05:34, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

@Wasif, Absolutely not. Nowhere was it mentioned that the RfC was applicable to only those articles which had conflicts. Those articles were simply used as examples to illustrate the problems with having them. Lynch7 05:39, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

I see. As for Conflict of language. It's a very vaguely defined phrase. --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 10:21, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Infobox Collage

Images used in the collage image of infobox seems to be old and dark by appearance. It need to be fixed and the credits of the collage photos must also be mentioned in source field to meet the image standards. It can also help avoid the ImageForDeletion tag in future. --Essaar (talk) 11:15, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Entertainment - Eco Park and festivals

• Though there is a new proposal for another Eco park at Thirupparankundram, the one that exists now is at Tallakulam not in Thirupparankundran.
• It is worth to mention the average visitors of the Eco Park, too.
• Madurai is sometimes regarded as "City of Festivals". But it is not mentioned in the article. --Essaar (talk) 14:33, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

BEIC control

Aside from the ambiguous map on page 253 of Markovitz, I can find no support in that source for the statement that it was in 1801 that the British East India Company took direct control. The map refers to 1790 and 1801, and to annexation, but makes no mention of direct control. Can someone explain this, please? - Sitush (talk) 16:49, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

... and an explanation for the vague comment sourced to King, Anthony D. (2005), Buildings and Society: Essays on the Social Development of the Built Environment, Taylor & Francis e-library, ISBN 0-203-48075-9 would also be appreciate. Since the British government devolved control to the EIC until post-1857, I am pretty sure that something is amiss in either the phrasing or the facts here. I cannot see the source at all - pesky GBooks - but would be delighted if the relevant pages could be made available for review. Ta. - Sitush (talk) 16:53, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

British census data

British census methods in India changed from one decade to the next, and often quite dramatically. Are we sure that the figures used in the table of historical population prior to independence are meaningful? Is it really a good idea to tabulate using several sources? - Sitush (talk) 17:15, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

removed pre-independence census. Ssriram mt (talk) 14:26, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Second-tier city

The concept of a "second-tier" city is meaningless to most people outside India. Can it be linked to a suitable article? - Sitush (talk) 17:34, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

 DoneSsriram mt (talk) 14:27, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Sfn citations

There are a lot of problems with the Sfn citations. Briefly, these comprise citations that seemingly have no source and sources that seemingly are not cited. I think that in most cases the problem is likely to be that they have no been linked correctly. Regardless, this is a GA and it is not acceptable. I have simply deleted most of them but some remain due to lack of time. I hope that someone can sort out the mess but if not then I'll re-read the Sfn documentation and have a go myself. - Sitush (talk) 20:49, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

BTW, User:Ucucha/HarvErrors.js is a useful tool for finding these type of errors. - Sitush (talk) 20:52, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

 Done — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ssriram mt (talk • contribs) 14:27, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

District vs City

Why are we saying

With the advent of Small Scale Industries (SSI) after 1991, the industrialization of Madurai developed employment in the sector across the district from 63,271 in 1992–93 to 166,121 persons in 2001–02.[119] By the latter point, 28 per cent of the SSIs were textile-based, 22.9 per cent were building-based, 18.1 per cent were food-based and 10.4 per cent were electric-based.[119][120]

?

The figures are for the district, which has its own article. I realise that we do use the word "district" in the statements but it is confusing and inappropriate. I very nearly removed it but thought I'd see it someone can find figures for the city (my view of the source on GBooks is restricted). - Sitush (talk) 16:13, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Good catch - i was finding it odd while writing. I have removed the numbers, which are relevant to the district.Ssriram mt (talk) 14:31, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Independence activists

One trait common to Indian place articles - even down at village level - is to name-drop some independence activists/freedom fighters. I can understand the temptation to do so but unless the named people are notable in their own right (and thus can be blue-linked) then they have no place in any Wikipedia article. There are literally hundreds of such people who are blue-linked, but N. M. R. Subbaraman and Mohammad Ismail Sahib are not and they appear only to get passing mentions in the cited sources. It is trivia and it should be binned. - Sitush (talk) 17:06, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

They are quite notable, just that wiki doesnt have article in their names. Mohammad Ismail Sahib conceived the Muslim League party. Leaving prime leaders, all these leaders get only passing mention in English sources. We cannot expect to have Tilaks and Gandhis in all the towns. Ssriram mt (talk) 14:22, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

I have also added about temple entry movement, which is a historic one. Ssriram mt (talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ssriram mt (talk • contribs) 02:37, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Continuous habitation

Surely there must be an English language source for "Madurai has been a major settlement for two millennia and is one of the oldest continuously inhabited cities in the world with a recorded history from 3rd century BC.[3]"? Dinamalar is currently used and I am not even sure that it really cuts the mustard on the reliability front. I am also curious regarding when it became a city, rather than a settlement: are we in danger of mixing apples and oranges? - Sitush (talk) 20:11, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

 Done. Ssriram mt (talk) 02:52, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

GAR

This is advance warning: this article is poor and should never have been awarded GA in its then form. Since no-one with access to the sources etc seems to be prepared to fix it, I will be seeking a delisting. - Sitush (talk) 19:37, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Somehow the talk is off my watchlist. I have removed redlinks and also will work on to remove puppets. Ssriram mt (talk) 23:02, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

I came here from the List of Oldest Inhabited Cities. The claim that it is one of the world's oldest inhabited cities in the world seems to have been based ona Wikipedia republisher's book and said oldest in India. One of the other 2 sources was a Wikipedia article, the other a travel book. Please folks, when you vet for GA vet the sources against our criteria, make sure there are page numbers for books, etc - maybe even check them? Dougweller (talk) 15:21, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

The citations are fixed. Ssriram mt (talk) 03:11, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Maamadurai Potruvom

Hi, The article Maamadurai Potruvom about the recent meet held in Madurai to celebrate the heritage of madurai is with less or No information. please contribute to improve the article. Wasif (talk) 06:49, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

citations/clarifications

There are quite some that have been noted. I will fix it over the weekend and request a lock. The blanks are induced by the refs removed earlier. Some puppet edits add to the cause and somehow sneak in to degrade the overall quality. Ssriram mt (talk) 04:50, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

These are fixed. Some of the edits were plain vanilla and could have been accomplished by simple edits, rather than crowding the article with CN template.Ssriram mt (talk) 16:03, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

No, they are not. And sniping at me will achieve nothing. I've said it before and I say it again: this is not a GA quality article yet. There still remain, for example, too many unsourced statements, too many misrepresentations of sources (I've just fixed one) and too many unexplained gaps. - Sitush (talk) 17:17, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

I have nominated the article for GOCE and will add references on the missing pieces. Nothing personal here, but edits are easy compared to review templates/comments.Ssriram mt (talk) 02:58, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Is second largest municipal corporation of Tamil Nadu?

Hello, Please provide a source for the statement "Madurai is the second largest municipal corporation of Tamil Nadu" in the introductory paragraph of this article. The citation provided near to the statement does not has any proof for this statement. Thanks. Mmahesh207 (talk) 11:04, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Population

MADURAI METRO POPULATION IS NEARLY 2012000 BUT CITY POPULATION IS ONLY 1240000..... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Andrew Gray (talk • contribs) 15:51, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Madurai

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Madurai's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "ua_2011":

• From Coimbatore: "Major Agglomerations" (PDF). The Registrar General & Census Commissioner, Ministry of Home Affairs, Government of India. 2011. Retrieved 31 May 2015.
• From Bangalore: "Urban agglomerations/cities having population 1 million and above" (PDF). Provisional population totals, census of India 2011. Registrar General & Census Commissioner, India. 2011. Retrieved 26 January 2012.
• From Tiruchirappalli: "Major Agglomerations" (PDF). The Registrar General & Census Commissioner, Ministry of Home Affairs, Government of India. Retrieved 30 January 2014.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 05:17, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Could you please specify the references which you found to be orphaned? so that i could look into for the correct versions. Wasif (talk) 13:39, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

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Origin of Name

Enthusiasm should not lead to distortion of history. Madurai was always known as Madhura. It was Tamilized as Madurai. It is preposterous to claim that the name evolved from Marudhai.

• Any idea if the Madurai bench is a circuit bench or a permanent bench? -- Sundar (talk · contribs) 06:35, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)

As far as my knowledge goes, it's a permanent bench. Refer to http://www.tn.gov.in/policynotes/admn_of_justice.htm. But I'm still not sure of the number of districts under Madurai jurisdiction.. 12, 14 or 16? ~elviajero (talk · contribs)

Per this it is 12. Also, the jurisdiction question is interesting. Because, by virtue of being benches of the high court both the Chennai bench and Madurai bench must have jurisdiction all over Tamil nadu. But, the registry will take care that the cases from these regions alone are posted to the Madurai bench. So, perhaps an emergency case may be taken up by either bench. -- Sundar (talk · contribs) 04:44, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)

Update. Per this it is 13. -- Sundar (talk · contribs) 04:50, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)

---

Sundar,

Appreciating your contributions. Good work.

//Madurai was always known as Madhura//

  - Only North people called it like that

//preposterous to claim that the name evolved from Marudhai//

  - There is nothing preposterous. This is also a claim. There is 50% chance. As per Tamil Literature, Marutham is a type of "Thinai". So, we can add this claim in the article.

Nobody knows about the exact reason for the name "Madurai" as it is not a recently-built city.

Even before 2500 years, madurai was mentioned in literatures.( It could have been someother madurai near seashore. )

We can include about the Old Madurai also, Which hosted Mudal, Irandam Thamizh sangams. References are there in Sangam Literatures. Thanking you once again.

-- Sathish

It was never Madhura. It was always Madurai. This is an ancient city linked to civilization. It has been Madurai since then. Howcome, someone is claiming it to be Madhura? Don't mix up Madhura with Madurai. Madurai has always been Madurai.

By the way, what is there to Tamilize a city in Tamil Nadu?

---

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.145.159.116 (talk) 10:21, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I have read on some webpages (unfortunately i forgot which ones, since i didn't know, that i will need that info later) that the name "Madurai" is coming from "Madura" or "Madhura", and this again originates from "Mathura", the North-Indian birthplace of Lord Krishna, but tamilized. Which means that the city is using this very holy name, which would make perfect sense to me. Which Hindu would not appreciate living in the city of Krishna? The same was done with other names, like Ganga or Brahma, so why not with Mathura? Nobody ever heard of that story here? --91.64.85.115 (talk) 14:21, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 14 October 2019

Please Change AIIMS a premier medical institution also under construction in Madurai covering nearly 262 acres of land in sub-urban Thoppur Madurai district

to AIIMS a premier medical institution is also under construction in Madurai covering nearly 262 acres of land in sub-urban Thoppur Madurai district 14.139.190.98 (talk) 09:28, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Begoon 09:38, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

 Done - I don't think adding "is" requires a citation, but I have tagged the sentence already in the article - Arjayay (talk) 10:15, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

Fair enough - I added a reference. -- Begoon 10:55, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

Relative size

On 17 February 2021, an IP editior changed:

"the third largest Urban agglomeration in Tamil Nadu after Chennai and Coimbatore and 44th most populated city in India."

to

"the second largest Urban agglomeration in Tamil Nadu after Chennai 20th most populated city in India."

without citation. The original was cited to the 2011 census. As the 2021 census is not available yet, this change seems premature, although the boundaries of the city were significantly extended after the census report in 2011, with a concomitant increase in population. I have reverted this edit pending citation to reliable figures.  --Bejnar (talk) 21:25, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Citation style and volume of citation

On 16 February 2021, editor Redtree21 tagged this article with 1.) "unclear citation style" and 2.) "excess citation".

• 1.) Citation style: While I am not a great fan of the Shortened footnotes style of citation, it can be appropriate where there are relatively few main sources and there is multiple citation to different pages of each; however, its use in this article, while not "unclear", seems to be unnecessarily repetitive, where most of the citations so styled are only cited once or twice. I think that using the more normal style would improve the reference section, and improve user access to sources (reduced clicking). The few citations that recur such as National Geographic (2008) "Sacred Places of a Lifetime" p. 155 and "List of Members Constituency name wise 2011" can be handled quite well by the use of "ref name=".
• 2.) Excess citation: I think that 200 citations are about right for an article of this length, given current policy on documentation. (WP:Verifiability and WP:Citing sources) The apparent excess could be almost halved by eliminating the Shortened footnotes style of citation. In addition, there are a few places where three citations seem excessive for non-controvercial points, such as "Tamil is spoken by most, and the standard dialect is the Madurai Tamil dialect.[20][82][83]" One good reliable source should do there, and in a couple of other places.
  

Although I should note that changing the majority citation style normally requires consensus. And in this case would be quite time consuming. But, I, for one, would !vote to make the change. I note that the article was not originally written with the Shortened footnotes style, but was converted to that style on 28 June 2012‎ by editor Ssriram mt without discussion.  --Bejnar (talk) 22:05, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Harvard is OK for academic papers, but I suspect a great many of our readers don't understand it, whilst it is also laborious and repetitive. It is most suited where there are numerous references to different pages of the same publication, which is certainly NOT the case in this article.
A lay reader clicking on a number is taken to the upper half of the References section (which according to WP:CITESHORT should be called "Notes") - if they don't realise that clicking on the blue link takes then to the reference in the (untitled) second half of the list they are left looking for it - and the first 2/3 of the list is organized by the name of the publication, and the final 1/3 is organized by the name of the author, although there is a right jumble between "UAs having ..." and "Council accepts ..." whilst ""Tamil Nadu Polytechnic ..." is below the list, because some editors trying to leave references do not understand it, let alone the readers.
There is also a great deal of repetition e.g. "36 cities that will shape India's future." links to "36 cities that will shape India's future". Rediff. Retrieved 22 August 2012." 7/12 words are repeats.
As for the number of references, I agree that we don't need multiple sources for a simple fact, just the most reliable/authoritative.
I therefore would support the abandonment of Shortened footnotes - Arjayay (talk) 10:46, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

When I was working on GA, a uniform citation style was targeted. There was no discussion on the citation style at that point. But if it has to be modified and excessive citations have to be trimmed, we can go ahead.Ssriram mt (talk) 12:09, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

All citation changes are done and excessive references are removed. I have trimmed some irrelevant contents and images Ssriram mt (talk) 13:52, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

• Someone asked where is the WP guideline that says that citation styles should be discussed prior to change. See: WP:CITEVAR. This is that discussion. --Bejnar (talk) 19:20, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:

• Arappalayam bus stand.jpg
• MADURAI AIRPORT.jpg
• MADURAI JN NIGHT VIEW.jpg
• MGR BUS STAND SKY VIEW.jpg
• Periyar Bus Stand.jpg
• TEJAS AC.jpg
• V.O. CHIDAMBARANAR PORT,Tuticorin.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 08:08, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Marriott madurai1.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 23:23, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• ImperioPandya1251-1283AD.svg

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Pronunciation

"Madurai (/ˈmædjʊraɪ/ MAD-yuurr-eye,[3][4] US also /ˌmɑːdəˈraɪ/ MAH-də-RY[4][5][6]) "

These pronunciation guides are atrocities. Who came up with them? They are like a caricature of how to mispronounce Tamil city names. In Tamil it is pronounced "muh" (as in 'mother') "dhu" (th as in 'the', u as in 'put') "rei" (like English 'ray' but with less diphthong). If you listen to the first 10 seconds of this video you will hear it twice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUKDvHpDhR0. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.108.7.199 (talk) 00:17, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Madurai

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Madurai's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "language":

• From Madurai district: "Table C-16 Population by Mother Tongue: Tamil Nadu". Census of India. Registrar General and Census Commissioner of India.
• From Hyderabad: "Table C-16 Population by Mother Tongue: Andhra Pradesh (Urban)". Census of India. Registrar General and Census Commissioner of India.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. Feel free to remove this comment after fixing the refs. AnomieBOT⚡ 16:43, 18 July 2023 (UTC)