Talk:Madurese

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Can you point to a policy which says ethnic group X should be renamed to be 'X people'? Wikipedia:WikiProject_Ethnic_groups says "As of January 2006, there is no strong consensus on naming of articles about ethnic groups.", and it lists the exiting naming variations. Without a Wikipedia convention renaming seems counter productive; it would be unfortunate if we had to get into a DAB renaming war as per Riau. (Caniago 00:13, 7 April 2007 (UTC))

• no I cannot. And I see no need. Why do you ask? Tobias Conradi (Talk) 00:39, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

So, why are you renaming ethnic groups from one arbitrary naming convention to another arbitrary naming convention? Again, your renaming creates more problems than it solves, especially since you don't fix up the mass of broken links you have created. I may just rename the articles back to what they were to solve this. (Caniago 00:54, 7 April 2007 (UTC))

if I renamed then probably because the name was ambigous. But please say what you are referring to. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 00:56, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Madurese. The Madurese ethnic group article contains a link to the language article, so I don't see a need for a DAB page. The ethnic group article is intrinsically a defacto DAB page. It a stylistic issue, and per the WikiProject_Ethnic_groups there is no consensus on how to structure this case. The ethnic groups is the more likely article people are looking for - do a search on Google for Madurese and the first page of results is all for the ethnic group. (Caniago 01:00, 7 April 2007 (UTC))

First hit in Google is Madurese. This is the short form for the Madurese people and the Madurese language. Maybe the WikiProject language already did its job and linked all Madurese language related stuff to the more correct title, while the Ethnic groups people still have this task in front of them. The articles can of course link to each other. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 01:20, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I was wrong, there are several language articles wrongly linking to Madurese. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 01:24, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes Madurese is the name for the language and the ethnic group, but why do you think the language is called Madurese - the ethnic group is the root of all things called Madurese, and so its by far the most important article and so shouldn't have a DAB : the Madurese ethnic group article is a DAB page itself. You can think of the language article as a sub-article of of the ethnic group article which is about all aspects of Madurese including language. Incorrect linking isn't a significant problem unless there a term is ambiguous with unrelated meanings. Furthermore it isn't solved by created a unique DAB page. For example, since Padang, Indonesia was created, people often just Wikilink to Padang since most people assume Padang points directly to the city - other uses of Padang are less commonly used. I know what your reason for creating DABs is, I just don't agree it solves more problems than it creates. (Caniago 10:48, 7 April 2007 (UTC))

• 1. Madurese people page is not a dab page as defined by Wikipedia, 2. primary topic policy does not follow the principle what was first. If this would be true, we would have to rename lots of province articles for Indonesia, since lot of them are amed after something that was first. Yogya was similiar, where some people wanted the what was first rule. I think this is irrelevat for the reader when he is looking for an article. I agree with you: In the meantime, while changing it "creates" more problems, but in the longer run WP profits. Links that go to dab pages can be automatically be detected and users with AWB access can go through fast and fix all links. I hope I made my ideas a little bit better understandable. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 14:50, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
  • lots of pages do have the people at other places: Chinese, English, Spanish. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 15:06, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

The issue is not which page was created first. The issue is that the Madurese language is (or should) just be a sub-article of the Madurese ethnic group article - language is just one aspect of the ethnic group. So, elevating the Madurese language article to the same level as the Madurese ethnic group article as you are doing is wrong in principle. Also, most people will be looking for the ethnic group if they type in Madurese, as is seen on the Google search results. I don't agree that WP profits in the long term - DABs are just a pain in the ass for users looking for something due to the extra level of unnecessary redirection. (Caniago 15:16, 9 April 2007 (UTC))

Tobias Conradi probably wasn't referring to "which page was created first", but rather to the fact that we don't use any sort of 'primacy' in the usages of the terms themselves in deciding how to disambiguate. That is, if an obscure book is made into a very popular movie with the same name the book should not get a direct link from the name by virtue of having come first and being the 'source' for the movie. Rather, we disambiguate based on ease of use for readers and editors - what are people likely to be searching for / linking to? In this case, if someone types in 'Madurese' as a search option or wikilink are they overwhelmingly more likely to intend the people than the language? If not, then standard procedure is to have a disambiguation page. We generally only do a direct link to one term or the other if it is clearly much more likely to be intended. --CBD 23:47, 10 April 2007 (UTC)