Talk:Mae Salong/GA2

GA review

Hi again. I think you made the right choice to develop this as an article about the village of Santikhiri instead of the lost army.

I've had a chance now to look through the re-worked article, and I don't see any reason why together we can't get this up to a deserved GA listing. It's not quite there yet though I don't think. Here are some of my initial thoughts:

• "Mae Salong (Thai: แม่สลอง) ... General Tuan Shi-wen (Thai: Chiwan Khamlue)." If you're going to supply Thai equivalents (and why not) then I think they should use a consistent alphabet.

The Thai script for "Mae Salong" was added by another editor recently as a request for Thai script was placed by an administrator on this talk page earlier. The anglicised "Chiwan Khamlue" was included by me to facilitate its correct nonclamenture earlier. Anyway, I've rewritten it as a "aka" in the lead paragraph now. -- Aldwinteo 13:12, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• I think that there are too many short subsections in the History section; they tend to break up the flow of the fascinating story of the lost army.

I've removed some sub-headers for easy readability now. -- Aldwinteo 13:12, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• Some of the other sections are also too short. Is there really just one sentence to be written about Santikhiri's administration? Is there a local civic leader in the village? Is (s)he elected or appointed? Who by, how often? Is there a local council? How is the village represented in the Thai national government?

I've consolidated the previous "Administration" & "Demography" sections into the "Geograpgy & climate" section with some expanded details now. I regret to inform that I couldn't add some requested details as its info are not available during my earlier research. Pse refer to revised article for details. -- Aldwinteo 13:12, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• In the Demography section, are the minorities and the majority Chinese integrated, or do they live in separate areas of the town? If there really is no more to be said about demography, then probably that section ought to be combined with Geography.
• Now that you've (correctly in my view) decided to focus this article on the village, I think that you need to say something about utilities and schooling in the village. Where does the village's water and power supply come from for instance? Are there any schools in the village? Educating children up to what age? What do they do after that age?

Same reply as per para 3. -- Aldwinteo 13:12, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• Did a village exist on the site before the 93rd Division arrived?

Yes, the hill tribes people. Pse refer to revised article for details. -- Aldwinteo 13:12, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm once again placing this article on hold, to allow time for these questions to be addressed.

--Malleus Fatuarum 22:26, 30 October 2007 (UTC) $Insertformulahere$

Some supplementary questions

• The caption underneath the picture of Santikhiri says "The villages of Santikhiri ...". Is that just a typo, or is Santikhiri actually made up of more than one village?

A typo, should be "village" instead. Typo amended -- Aldwinteo 02:13, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

• "Santikhiri is accessible via two routes – the older Route 1130 from Ban Basang and the newer Route 1234 from the south, which were previously only accessible by pack horses." I'm not sure what that means. Does it mean that before these routes were built Santikhiri could only be reached by pack horses, or that the routes have been upgraded, and that before the upgrade they were only useable by pack horses?

The former, I've amended the text for clarity now -- Aldwinteo 02:13, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

• "General Lue Ye-tien, 90, Tuan's former right-hand man, is the current leader of the group since Tuan's death in 1980." Without a context this is going to age very rapidly, and may not even be true now. OK, Lue Ye-tien was 90 in February this year, but maybe he's had another birthday since then. Maybe better to say something like "At the age of 63, General Lue Ye-Tien, Tian's former right-hand man, became the leader of the group following Tuan's death in 1980."

I've added the nec context for clarity -- Aldwinteo 02:13, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

--Malleus Fatuarum 16:54, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

OK, thanks for that, I think we're getting there now. I'm afraid that I've got a few further comments though: :(

• I still think that the History section has probably got one or two too many subsections.
• The Escape to Myanmar subsection in particular seems to me to be problematic. There's a good and interesting story to be told there, but this is an article about Santikhiri, not the KMT/Taiwan/CIA collaboration before the soldiers reached Mae Salong. I realise that this stems from the uncertainty about whether this ought to be an article about the village or the 93rd Division. If you like, I'll try to rewrite the first part of the History section and if you don't like it you can revert it with no hard feelings.
• The last paragraph of the Geography and climate section would probably fit better in the History section.
• I think there are too many short subsections in the Landmarks and attractions section. If there's nothing more to be said about the last three, for instance, then once again probably better to merge.

I'm sorry if I seem to be over-critical, but I very much want to be able to list Santikhiri as a well-deserved GA. :) --Malleus Fatuarum 21:30, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm fine with your suggested rewrite/merge as long as the content & integrity of the article is not degraded. Kindly proceed but do take great care as it was the fascinating history of its steadfast populace that make Santikhiri so unique & interesting to locals (including Thai royalty) & tourists alike. In fact, I've seen a Taiwanese movie based on Gen. Tuan & Santikhiri before and some references or reenactment of it in some Thai MTVs while I was staying in Thailand many years ago. Thank u for your copyedits of late. -- Aldwinteo 02:11, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree, the history is very interesting, and I'll try to be sensitive to that. But as I said, if you don't like my offering then please feel free to revert it. BTW, can you supply a reference for the estimated population of 20,000 please? --Malleus Fatuarum 18:09, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

The reference u sought is found appended at the end of the same paragraph by "Jinakul" of Bangkok Post. I've placed it next to the figure now. I've added some minor new details which I stumbled upon recently, & also did some reorganising work of the article sections earlier. I hope we could conclude on its GA status soon... I've been so involved on this subject since the 1st GA review nearly 2 mths ago, followed by 1-month research & rewrite, that I even had dreams of myself visiting the place & its inhabitants recently! (Not joking!) -- Aldwinteo 06:55, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

• OK, I'm going to list this article as a GA now. I made a few small changes, mainly to tone down what might appear to some as POV - things like "fallen heroes" for instance - and I converted the list of landmarks back to prose, as lists are frowned upon in GAs. Well done for producing such an informative and interesting article! --Malleus Fatuarum 13:04, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

At last, this 40-day 'trial' has finally come to an end; was afraid I'm gonna have nightmares instead of dreams next! Once again, I thank u for your time, support, & the wonderful copyedits u have made for the past 7 days in improving its quality further. I can finally look forward in having a good nite sleep & a good break with a peace of mind during the weekends now. Khop khun krap! ("Thank you" in Thai) -- Aldwinteo 17:10, 7 November 2007 (UTC)