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Talk:Magdalen College, Oxford

Latest comment: 3 years ago by Andrew ranfurly in topic Expansion
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History

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"Magdalen College was founded 1458 in Oxford by William of Waynflete, Bishop of Winchester, originally as Magdalen. New educational ideas of the Renaissance era as well as new methods of teaching were tried out."

Was going to clean up the second sentence and a little research showd that not only was it poor grammar, but that it was lifted directly from the college's website.

My replacement sentence is far from satisfactory and the section far from complete. Perhaps someone who knows something about the college could help?

Also corrected the date per the college's website

Ben 22:00, 2005 Feb 25 (UTC)

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Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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Expansion

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Latest comment: 3 years ago15 comments3 people in discussion

Magdalen Hall

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@JCrue: Thanks for expanding the article. I have tried to clarify the references to Magdalen Hall in the St. Swithun's quad section in line with the reference to Magdalen College's website.[1] Let me know if you disagree with any of my changes. TSventon (talk) 12:24, 3 February 2020 (UTC)Reply

Thank you for the correction; how confusing that there should have been two Magdalen Halls as well as a Magdalen College in the same place...! --JCrue (talk) 20:56, 3 February 2020 (UTC)Reply
@JCrue: I have changed the date of foundation to around 1490 in line with Brockliss (the Magdalen reference doesn't give a date). I can't see 1487 in the references. Magdalen Hall seems to have used 1487 as a foundation date but that was in the nineteenth century and I think Brockliss' approximate date makes more sense. (By the way, I tried to tidy up Wikipedia's mentions of Magdalen Hall last year, hence my detailed interest now.) TSventon (talk) 13:24, 11 February 2020 (UTC)Reply
@TSventon: 1487 came from the BHO reference, which notes Magdalen Hall "may have been in existence by 1487" citing W. D. Macray's Register of Magdalen College, Oxford (1894–1915). Perhaps "by the 1490s" might be a way to hedge both references? --JCrue (talk) 18:11, 13 February 2020 (UTC)Reply
@JCrue: I would prefer to use Brockliss rather than BHO/ Macray as Brockliss is much more recent (see Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Age_matters). (There is more guidance on conflicting sources at Wikipedia:These_are_not_original_research#Conflict_between_sources.) The Oxford University Calendar for 1863 (page 297) says "The School with the Refectory and Chambers, erected by Bishop Waynflete for Students previous to admission to his College, obtained the appellation of St. Mary Magdalen Hall as early as 1487, and was governed by one of the Fellows until 1602, when it became an independent Hall", which suggests that early sources don't always distinguish between Magdalen College School and Magdalen Hall. TSventon (talk) 12:40, 14 February 2020 (UTC)Reply
Interestingly the Oxford University Calendar for 1819 (page 261) conflates the two Magdalen Halls: "This Hall, adjoining Magdalen College, was originally built around 1353, and it is supposed that the first President and Fellows of the College were transplanted from it. Bishop Waynfleet, in 1480, having re-established and augmented it, converted it into a dwelling for Students, preparatory to their admission into his then recently founded College." TSventon (talk) 12:52, 14 February 2020 (UTC)Reply
I have started another thread at Talk:Hertford_College,_Oxford#Magdalen_Hall as that article seems to be inconsistent at the moment. TSventon (talk) 15:33, 16 February 2020 (UTC)Reply
Okay, using Brockliss' date makes sense. Thank you for all the double-checking you've been doing! --JCrue (talk) 22:24, 16 February 2020 (UTC)Reply
@Boyanmilouchev: I reverted your edit linking Magdalen Hall (1448) to Hertford College as the ancestor of Hertford was the second Magdalen Hall (c. 1490). I think this is explained in this article, but reply here if you think the explanation should be improved further. TSventon (talk) 12:56, 25 February 2020 (UTC)Reply

References

  1. ^ "Magdalen Hall". magd.ox.ac.uk. Retrieved 21 December 2018.

Daubeny laboratory

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@JCrue: I think it may be misleading to say the laboratory was "the first science laboratory to be administered by a college of the University and the only such building that survives", referenced to the college website.[1] This should probably be removed (or reworded) as the "Anatomy School" at Christ Church was built in 1777 and is now part of the SCR.[2] TSventon (talk) 13:48, 5 February 2020 (UTC)Reply

I'm not sure I would describe an anatomical theatre as a laboratory, which is probably why the Magdalen website describes the Daubeny lab that way. According to this page about the 'laboratory revolution' of the 19th century,

In the dictionaries and encyclopaedias of the 19th century, "laboratory" is almost universally equated with "chemical laboratory". This prevailing definition was only revised in 1898 when the expression was described as "generally" applying to a room "in which chemical, pharmaceutical, physical or technical work is performed"

That said, I'm not married to how it is phrased at the moment if you think it can be made clearer (or hedged).
I get the impression that there were (& Brockliss' book alludes to there being) a spate of college laboratories constructed around this time before eventually the University took over teaching of the sciences in the early 20th century, and this may be a better context to consider the Daubeny lab in, but I've not found a really good source on the timeline of science teaching at Oxford yet. --JCrue (talk) 17:57, 5 February 2020 (UTC)Reply
I will tweak the phrasing as the Christ Church building seems comparable to the Magdalen one: both included a lecture room, space for research and collections of specimens and books (based on the R. P. Wayne page above and its attachments and Robert Gunther's Book). John Parsons, the first Lee's reader gave "gave systematic and diligent lectures on chemistry as well as on anatomy."[3]
Department of Chemistry, University of Oxford has a timeline for "laboratories set up in individual colleges – Christ Church, Oxford (1767), Magdalen College, Oxford (Daubeny Laboratory, 1848), Balliol College, Oxford (1853, later joined with Trinity College, Oxford to become the Balliol-Trinity Laboratories), Queen's College, Oxford (1900), and Jesus College, Oxford (1907)" based on page 275 of "Chemistry at Oxford: A History from 1600 to 2005" (via Google books).[4]"
I still think the wording on the college website is a bit misleading, but it is only one sentence and probably not based on exhaustive research. TSventon (talk) 22:08, 5 February 2020 (UTC)Reply
Now updated. I think the Williams, etc book is more WP:NPOV than the Magdalen website. Several lab buildings survive after conversion to other uses (e.g. Christ Church, Jesus) but the Magdalen building still keeps the name of the Daubeny Laboratory. TSventon (talk) 16:33, 7 February 2020 (UTC)Reply

References

  1. ^ "The College Buildings". Magdalen College, Oxford. Retrieved 3 February 2020.
  2. ^ "The Lee Benefactions and the origins of the Christ Church Science Laboratory". R. P. Wayne, University of Oxford. Retrieved 5 February 2020.
  3. ^ "The Lee's Readers". R. P. Wayne, University of Oxford. Retrieved 5 February 2020.
  4. ^ Robert Joseph Paton Williams; Allan Chapman; John Shipley Rowlinson (6 November 2008). Chemistry at Oxford: A History from 1600 to 2005. Royal Society of Chemistry. p. 275. ISBN 978-0854041398.

Notable members

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@JCrue: This section is now longer than the equivalent sections in Jesus College, Oxford (good article) and Oriel College, Oxford (featured article). It might be worth creating something like List of Fellows of Magdalen College, Oxford if you have more content to add. TSventon (talk) 15:10, 1 March 2020 (UTC)Reply

and a photo of Katie Mitchell next to Oscar Wilde - I wonder who put that there?? Andrew ranfurly (talk) 22:38, 30 March 2021 (UTC)Reply

Pronunciation

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Latest comment: 4 years ago5 comments3 people in discussion

@Zedembee: Hi, thanks for contributing to this article. You added a section on pronunciation as follows:

Pronunciation of "Magdalen"
"Magdalen" is pronounced like the adjective "maudlin", with both the adjective and the college name alluding to Mary Magdalene.[1]

I removed the section you added on the pronunciation of Magdalen for a couple of reasons.

I agree it's relevant to include pronunciation guidance for "Magdalen", as it is not obvious from the spelling. Following the wikipedia manual of style for pronunciation, the pronunciation is given in IPA and respelling in the lede section.

Magdalen College (/ˈmɔːdlɪn/ MAWD-lin)[2] is a constituent college of the University of Oxford.

In your edit summary reverting my changes, you said that you considered that "maudlin" the adjective was derived from "Magdalen" to be of linguistic interest. That may be of relevance to the article on Mary Magdalene—where it is mentioned, in connection to the depictions of Mary Magdalene in tears in art—but as "maudlin" isn't derived from "Magdalen College", the connection here is several times removed. That's why I don't think it is relevant on this page in particular (what I meant by "trivia[l]").

My justification for removing that section then was that the pertinent information regarding pronunciation is already covered per the MOS (in the lede), and the additional information (about words derived from Mary Magdalene) is not relevant to this college. Please let me know if you still disagree with this and your reasoning. Best wishes --JCrue (talk) 20:15, 22 February 2020 (UTC)Reply

@JCrue and Zedembee: I think it could be useful to have a sentence explaining that the Middle English pronunciation of the Magdalen (and hence Magdalen College) is derived from the Old French Madeleine and then from Church Latin Magdalena, which is explained in the Oxford Learners Dictionaries reference. It could possibly go at the end of the foundation subsection of the history section (which I have just added). TSventon (talk) 13:01, 28 February 2020 (UTC)Reply
@JCrue and TSventon: Hi guys, great discussion and all interesting points. I see your point, JCrue, that the linguistic connection is indirect and perhaps does not warrant its own section in such a prominent position of the page. At the same time, I feel it's not irrelevant -- the pronunciation becomes more meaningful when given with context, rather than just the dry syllabic rendition at top. I like TSventon's idea of folding it into a general subsection about foundation. Thanks again for your thoughts. Zedembee (talk) 23:34, 29 February 2020 (UTC)Reply
@JCrue and Zedembee: I have added a more informative sentence about pronunciation, do improve it if you can. TSventon (talk) 01:34, 1 March 2020 (UTC)Reply
@Zedembee: I see your points and I agree that @TSventon:'s idea looks like a good compromise :-). --JCrue (talk) 09:59, 1 March 2020 (UTC)Reply

References

  1. ^ "Definition of maudlin adjective". www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com. Oxford University Press. Retrieved 20 February 2020.
  2. ^ "Magdalen (Name)". First Names Dictionary on AskOxford.com. Archived from the original on 7 June 2011.
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