Talk:Magistrato alla Sanità

Magistrate “for” Health?

Shouldn't it be Magistrate Of Health? Just want to know if its a translation thing or if that’s how it’s actually called. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DSXG Plays (talk • contribs) 23:09, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't think there's a universally accepted standardised translation, and translating as "Magistrate of Health" would arguably be valid, but I have found direct translation as "Magistrate for Health" in a number of modern secondary sources, such as Social History of Medicine, 1990, p.333, Second Opinion: Doctors, Diseases and Decisions in Modern Medicine, 2003, p.71 and The History of Cartography Vol. III, 2007, p.879, so there's a precedent for translating it as Magistrate 'for' Health in this case. I don't unfortunately have the wherewithal or the time to conduct a more systematic search to see whether "for" predominates over "of" in translation, but if anyone wishes to the results may be useful here? Benjitheijneb (talk) 13:53, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

(Edited to add page numbers; access to the 1990 example may be limited, but to quote for those without access, Nelli-Elena Vanzan Marchini describes History of health care in eighteenth-century Venice in a brief description as "an examination of health provision in the city with particular reference to the eighteenth century and the Magistrate for Health".) Benjitheijneb (talk) 13:58, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Benjitheijneb, DSXG Plays, I've added a link to this article on the template for the Venetian government.

With regard to the foregoing discussion on the title of the article and translation, I would note that, independently of the issue of for or of, magistrate would appear inappropriate since it is, by definition, a single official or officer. Magistracy would be the English equivalent to Magistrato in this case since it refers to the office or function of a magistrate. Consistency is an additional consideration. It's one of the five criteria WP outlines for article titles: "The title is consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles". In this case, most of the articles on the minor magistracies of the Venetian government do not translate the name of the office. Some of the offices don't even have standard English equivalents. So, my recommendation would be to use the Italian Magistrato alla Sanità as the title.

Constantine may also have some input.Venicescapes (talk) 11:03, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

If the English form is common enough in the sources, then probably it would have to enjoy precedence per WP:ENG, but given that many studies on Venice use the original (or Italianized) names, and foreign terms are often left untranslated if there exists no clear analogue, I see no problem with using the Magistrato alla Sanità. Constantine ✍ 11:08, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Benjitheijneb, DSXG Plays, Constantine ✍, I did some limited research into the question of the title/translation. The bottom line is that there does not appear to be a standard English rendering. Many sources use the original name.

In its catalogue, the US National Library of Medicine leaves it untranslated, Magistrato alla Sanità. In other publications by the library it is referred to as Magistrato alla Sanità, but the translation Health Magistrate is provided between parentheses. Jonathan Seitz, Professor of History, Drexel University, also uses the original name, but he provides the translation as Magistracy of Health. Andrew D. Cliff, University of Cambridge, Matthew Smallman-Raynor, University of Nottingham, and Peta M. Stevens, University of Cambridge, use the original Magistrato alla Sanità, but they translate it in quotations from documents as Magistrate of the Office of Health, which is consistent with a 1752 anthology of documents. Luigi Bertinato, University of Verona, gives it as Public Health Care Magistracy. Carlo Cipolla, University of California-Berkeley, uses Magistrate of Public Health. With regard to the original question (Magistrate of Health or Magistrate for Health), I find it more often as Magistrate of Health. Again, my recommendation would be to use Magistrato alla Sanità which (1) seems to prevail, (2) avoids the whole translation issue, and (3) is also consistent with other Wikipedia articles. I would then put the various English translations between parentheses.

I ask everyone to weigh in so that a decision can be reached.Venicescapes (talk) 07:18, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

Support Magistrato alla Sanità, with Magistracy of Health as a close second. Constantine ✍ 09:07, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

Support - I have no particular investment in how best to translate title, and seeing there being a precedent in leaving the term untranslated in common English usage seems a strong argument in favour of it per WP:COMMONNAME (more so than I see WP:TITLECON as applicable here honestly, but moot point). Benjitheijneb (talk) 21:20, 21 September 2020 (UTC)