Talk:Magma (band)

Progressive Rock

The article starts telling that Magma is a Progressive Rock band. I seriously disagree. Rock influence in Magma is minimal, almost absent. This band is mostly influenced by modern classical music (Stravinsky, Bartok, Orff), John Coltrane, and eastern european music. Sometimes by soul music as well. I'd suggest it to be classified as "Zeuhl", to be honest.

Modifications

Removed links to online sellers "Wayside" and "Aquarius Records", as they are unrelated to Magma. Removed some editorial and non-neutral elements in "Discographic Notes". Some items in "Trivia" need citation.

Shtaman 02:11, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Possible POV issue

Quoting the article as of today, section "Trivia":

Quite bizarrely, the world famous snooker player Steve Davis is one of their biggest fans, and even organised a concert in London so he could watch them.

(...)

Ironically, Punk Rock Singer John Lydon, stated that he loved Magma.

Why is it "bizarre" or "ironic" ? --195.221.0.6 13:43, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Famous snooker player, organizing concerts for an obscure French band...

Punk rock vs Progressive and jazz rock...

I'd say the first one is "insolit" or "unusual" rather than "bizarre", and the second one "unexpected" rather than "ironic". Yet I'm not sure enough of myself (and of my understanding of those nuances in English) to edit. Any comment ? --Schmorgluck 08:30, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Punk is often considered a reaction to the pomp of stadium rock and the classically trained technical virtuous sound of progressive rock. No I don't have a reference, but punk is raw and has no regard for musicality, magma are incredibly tight and very demonstrative of classical training. -Gates.

Famous snooker player, organizing concerts for an obscure French band Obscure and famous are relative. I had never heard about this snooker player, which I've heard quite a bit about Magma. David.Monniaux 18:59, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

While a member of the Sex Pistols, John Lydon did a program on the BBC where he played records from his own collection that included dub reggae and songs by Peter Hammill of Van der Graaf Generator, and he has said that he has loved Krautrock groups like Can and Neu since he was young. For someone to be surprised (and consider it noteworthy) that Lydon likes Magma says more about that person's assumptions than about Lydon's tastes.--Jackal59 (talk) 21:50, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

It actually makes a whole lot of sense. Punk was a reaction more to the arena rock and corporate rock of that era — which naturally includes first-generation progrock bands like Yes, ELP and Genesis. A punker liking any of them would be interestingly out-of-character, though if you can believe Phil Collins in Progrock Britannia one of the early punkers (forget which one) whispered that as a hopefully not-overheard aside to him at the dawn of that era. But Captain Sensible of The Damned was and is a huge fan of Egg, a band at least as bizarre, "uncool," anti-commercial and eccentrically classically-influenced.

Punk and obscure, label-unsupported progrock might share exactly nothing musically — but they do both partake in a deeply anti-commercial and anti-establishment ethic.

Why else was Captain Beefheart's Trout Mask Replica so often cited as a major influence by first-generation punkers? Prior to the punk era, that album was strictly prog-bait.

Snardbafulator (talk) 21:34, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Removal of trivia section

Removed the "Trivia" section since it contained statements lacking both neutrality and citation.

24.37.131.195 04:20, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

This EN-wiki is getting too silly, trying too prove even the most simple trivia and polluting articles with templates. Anyway, restored section.

Argentine Magma

There was also an Argentine band called Magma. I think that should be noted on the disclaimer on top. The Argentine band played folk-prog with Andean influences. Here's a sample [1], and here's some more [2].

Spelling of Top's first name

Though I've seen his name spelled many ways (Jannick, Jannik, Janik, etc.), it seems that it is spelled Janik, as seen for example on the back cover of a pre-Magma album by his band Speed Limit (http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g266/avestin/SpeedLimitback.jpg). The article spells his name Jannik. I think it should be corrected to Janik.

Rileydog22 04:03, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

It's Jannick, see his official site. David.Monniaux 19:00, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 07:21, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Request: Kobaïan

Does anyone know enough about this language to write about it? It would be very interesting with an article, or at least a section on the magma page, about it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.165.147.247 (talk) 23:52, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

There's at least one Kobaïan lexicon out there in internetland. It doesn't seem to have a grammar, though. — Gwalla | Talk 04:57, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Hey, excellent job on this page, getting this remarkable band (by any objective measure, whether one likes their music or not, Magma is remarkable, for unique musical style, complex mythological basis and invented language) better known!

If an outsider can be allowed his two cents:

I would LOVE to see a page on Kobaian. It really strikes at the heart of the Wiki concept, which is to gather widely diverse bits of knowledge and bring them together for the better understanding of all.

If such a page is made, it could be announced at the various Magma chat spaces online (French blogs, Beyond Zeuhl blog, soulseek chat room, Yahoo group, etc.) to get broad input.

The lyrics to MDK (in Kobaian) are out there--I can supply them if you need them--and I've also heard that there is a French translation. I think it would be exceptional to have a page with the Kobaian lyrics in bold and multiple attempts to translate them below. Perhaps such a page might need some instructions, such as to use one, two or three "?" to designate degrees of uncertainty. I also think it important that one translation not override another, unless one is definitively better. Translation here would be an interactive project with fans and lyrics.

Finally, there is a Kobaian lexicon in French, and an English one after it, with translations from the French. This creates some issues in nuance of meaning. These could be posted as a guide and fixed up as need be, according to users' knowledge.

Just me two cents, but I think making the Magma experience more concrete would have inestimable value.

Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.253.220.232 (talk) 14:16, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

The lyrics to MDK are under copyright. We can't legitimately post them here. — Gwalla | Talk 18:31, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Wow. Either you're wrong or the lyric wiki project is in big trouble! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.253.220.232 (talk) 20:07, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

What lyric wiki project? They may very well be in big trouble if they're posting copyrighted lyrics. Public domain lyrics are okay, but Magma is not nearly old enough for its work to fall in the public domain. The occasional snippet (though not long sections, and certainly not full songs) may be justifiable as fair use. Most online lyrics sites are violating copyright law, and only get by because they're so small-potatoes that it's not worth the rights-holders' time and money to sue. — Gwalla | Talk 23:39, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

I've added quotes from interviews with Klaus Blasquiz (long-time Magma vocalist, from an interview done with both him and Vander) and with Vander himself that make it pretty clear that Kobaïan is not really a language. In fact, Vander basically says it's just the sounds that come out while he's composing and that he doesn't "intellectualise the process by saying 'Ok, now I’m going to write some words in a particular language'" (interview linked to article).--Jackal59 (talk) 21:58, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Availabilty of Magma recordings

The statement "While Magma's recordings remain relatively hard to find, Christian Vander and Jannick Top together keep Magma's back catalog in print on CD." is inaccurate. Almost all official Magma albums are readily available from on-line retailers such as Amazon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jpfowler27 (talk • contribs) 23:20, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Good point in my view. As far as I can tell, the record label Seventh is closely related to Magma and has been publishing their (and related) music since 1990. Apart from other online vendors, it may be difficult to find their music in physical CD shops. Maybe somebody with more knowledge about Seventh could adjust the text? BNutzer (talk) 11:51, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

 Done BNutzer (talk) 02:21, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Other

"# 1972: The Unnamables (studio album released under the alias Univeria Zekt)" UZ is a link to a non-existent page. Is it really worth having that link there? I think not, and so am removing it. Jbsegal (talk) 03:07, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

A few reparative measures

Ok, I've just spent the last half-hour adding several citations, modifying some of the wording, removing large extraneous - and uncited - sections, leaving a few tags, and moving the critical perception section to precede the discography, which is typically the conclusion of a musician or band's page in my experience. The anonymous edit was also mine. Peace! Psychonavigation (talk) 07:36, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

What I'd like to see is references to the later Zeuhl or Magma-influenced bands that emerged throughout the 90's - including Ruins, Koenjihyakkei, Eskaton and innumerable others. However, this would be difficult to cite. Can someone also inform me whether or not progarchives.com is a suitable source? Several professional music critics are contributors, and it's rather difficult to cite some statements - which are by no means superfluous (though conversely they're not particularly integral to the article) - without using it. In general it's nigh on impossible to find any half-decent sources concerning Magma. It's mostly aficionado's blogs and music reviewing websites. Ah well. Still, I feel it's important to mention Weidorje and Zao, seeing as they were the most noteworthy offshoots of Magma. Peace! :) Psychonavigation (talk) 07:42, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Ok I've done a major article overhaul, making the introduction more concise and shifting half of its material to a section called "legacy". I'm not sure if that's the best name for it, but the subject matter seems pertinent to such a label, with allusions to side projects, influence and offshoots. Got a few more citations but they're pretty broad... the "imaginative and adventerous" statement perhaps needs re-wording but it's got three professional sources - Scaruffi, AllMusic and Ground & Sky (whose writers are also employed by AllMusic to review prog-rock). Let me know what you think. I think it looks much cleaner! Peace! :) Psychonavigation (talk) 08:59, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Psychonavigation here, forgot my password. It looks like my edits are still pretty much intact, possibly because nobody ever visits this page. I would appreciate it if someone more source-erudite would correct any liabilities... however, that's by the by. My main issues are repeated, uncited statements appearing in both this article and its progenies. For example, the comparison to Stravinsky's "Les Noces". At least I bothered to find a cite for the Carl Orff remark. Personally it reeks of personal opinion. I've listened to Magma heavily for at least a decade and I see almost no similarities to Stravinsky's material, and Ẁurdah Ïtah doesn't really give an idea of the band's overall "sound" (if indeed they have one). In addition, save the narrative speculations for the fansites please. Until Mssr. Vander actually explicates point-by-point the entire thing from beginning to end, we are almost totally in the dark. So JUST STOP IT!! ARGHHH! :P 124.171.167.164 (talk) 11:07, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

The entire controversy section may violate BLP

Anything about Vander and his imputed beliefs that comes from a blog needs to be removed asap. Without proper sourcing, it violates WP:BLP. AllGloryToTheHypnotoad (talk) 05:12, 11 March 2017 (UTC) AllGloryToTheHypnotoad (talk) 05:12, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

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Proposal to merge Kobaïan into this article

Kobaïan doesn't seem, in my opinion, to be notable enough as a constructed language to warrant its own article. It doesn't have a comprehensive vocabulary or grammar system (things that are of great interest to conlang enthusiasts), and all of the article's sources are either from music critics or Magma themselves (not from linguists or conlangers). Strictly speaking, some may not even consider it a real language, just a vehicle for the band's sound poetry.

The language is, however, an integral part of Magma's work, and so I also believe on that count that merging the two would make for one overall better article. Turning the Kobaïan article into a section on Magma (band) would help put key context behind the rest of the article, as well as put everything about Magma's compositional philosophy into one place. Most of Kobaïan is repeat info from Magma (band) anyway, so it can definitely be merged in a way that keeps the article size sensible. —Marisauna (Talk) 02:54, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

I don't see why not. Most of the info on there is restating things that are already in the Magma article and most if not all use of it is seen in Magma's work Chipsahoy95 (talk) 01:01, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

I looked at the Kobaïan article, and it does not look significant enough to be separate. I think it should be merged. JanKeso (talk) 19:33, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

  Y Merger complete. Klbrain (talk) 17:27, 16 April 2022 (UTC)