Talk:Magyarization/archive 2

Civil records

This anonymous edit without citation or summary changed the date at which Hungarian was introduced for civil records from 1836 to 1844. I'm noting it rather than reverting, because I simply don't know the facts, but does someone have a citation for either date? - Jmabel | Talk 05:21, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Slovakization

If an article like this is allowed, there should be a similar one on Slovakization, since it is well proven that the ethnic balance of the Carpathian Basin was shifted considerably since the Trianon Treaty. Árpád 02:54, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Slovakization? Be bold and create it. :) —Khoikhoi 03:10, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Probably should exist. For what it's worth, we already have Romanianization, focused mainly on Transsylvania, so it's not like someone has it uniquely in for the Magyars. - Jmabel | Talk 00:33, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Árpád is an extremist chauvinist fascist Hungarian vandal (who is very probably all the time the same very primitive - openly - fascist vandal - HunTomy - who has appeared here before last Christmas), who is constantly changing his name (creating sockpuppets), provoking permanent unnecessary quarrels, placing irrelant fascist propaganda on talk pages and is highly stupid as a person. So much for the "good" faith. He should have been banned for ever 6 months ago. So do not discuss with him as if he was a normal contributor here. Juro 00:55, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

New paragraph on Magyarisation examples

I added the lines below, which was reverted, as "scrappy citations ". Now, I will not revert but I don't understand what exactly User:Zello is arguing. Please see for yourself and choose what is good.--Latinitas 13:43, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Examples of magyarization

File:Szekler.jpg

In Hungary live 10 milion people, but this number tells us something else. I must say that Hungary is the only country which ... please ... look: Germany is led by germans, Poland is led by poles, Slovakia by slovaks ... Hungary is the only country which, step by step, becomes the second Israel!!"(Molnar Josef, February 12, 2006)

• "Hungary assassinated 80% of its Jews, whom they sent to the gas chambers from Auschwitz-Maidanek [...]" (Rabbi Moshe Carmilly-Weinberger)
• "[...] the persecution of the Jews in Hungary is, probably, the most abject crime in the entire human kind's history." (Winston Churchill)
• "In Hungary live 10 milion people, but this number tells us something else. I must say that Hungary is the only country which ... please ... look: Germany is led by germans, Poland is led by poles, Slovakia by slovaks ... Hungary is the only country which, step by step, becomes the second Israel!!" (Molnar Josef, February 12, 2006)
• "Dear fellow citizens! Today when our brothers from Transylvania live under the cruel Romanian oppression, should we do nothing? Although we are spread all over the world and have to be silent, we must act for our children, for our elderly, for our mothers and relatives from Transylvania. What greatest goal can a Magyar have at the end of this century than the fight for the Magyar Homeland? Let us not submerge in the night of forgetfulness and apathy, let us hurry the moment when the Mother Homeland will have again her old saint borders. Let us prepare for this moment. Let us utter like an encouragement pray, like an oath, the words of Ducso Csaba: << I shall kill every Romanian standing in my way! I shall kill each and every one of them! There will be no mercy! During nights I shall set Romanian villages on fire. I shall rip the inhabitants with my sword. I shall poison their fountains! I shall throttle their babies! I shall have no mercy! For none of them! I shall have no mercy for the children, or for the pregnant women! Revenge! No mercy, cruel revenge!>> This is the goal of our fight. Only united we shall be victorious. We must bear Transylvania in our blood and not forget it, not even in our sleep. Let us inflame faith and hope to our brothers from Transylvania and fight. Like good Magyars. Like real Magyars!" (Hungarian Freedom Fighters Federation (Magyar Szabadsagharcs Szovetseg)
• "We must extirpate these sandalled-peasant Valachs and kill them as our own enemies. The priests preach the love for the people, but this is only a decoy as God only helps rough force and we all must use this rough force to kill and exterminate these Valachs. Religion with its 10 commands says: do not kill, do not steal, do not have a wish for someone else's woman, for these are sins. I ask you, is this sin? No, it is not. A sin is only if we don't exterminate this bunch of sandalled-peasant Valachs. We shall organize a Saint Bartholomew night and we shall even kill the babies in their mothers' bellies!" (baron Aczel Ede, found guilty for crimes against humanity after WWII)
• "I shall kill every Romanian standing in my way! I shall kill each and every one of them! There will be no mercy! At nights I shall set Romanian villages on fire. I shall rip the inhabitants with my sword. I shall poison their fountains! I shall throttle their babies! I shall have no mercy! For none of them! I shall have no mercy for the children, or for the pregnant women! Revenge! No mercy, cruel revenge! " (Ducso Csaba, "Nincs Kegyelen!" ("No mercy!"))
• "A peace congress has no value when its apostles preach from the tribune in favour of peace, and at the same time they oppress other nations in their own countries. But the saddest thing is that abroad the count Apponyi has the reputation of a peacemaker, while in Hungary he can't even consent to the non-Magyars the quality of human beings. Any sane person must grab the lying mask out of this man's face, so that everybody can see he is not a benefactor, but simply a predator bird." (Lev Tolstoi, Russian novelist, in his motivation of his refusal to take part at the inter-Parliamentary peace conference from Budapest, 1907)
• "Hate the Serbs! [...] Hate the Romanians! [...] At Kesmark callings for battle are heard . [...] My son, I leave you this legacy: revenge! For the moment of revenge cannot be too far: Hate the Czechs!" (from a novel by dr. Iosif Farago)
• "We cannot have any good relationship with the Romanians, Czechs, and Serbs!...They are our enemies! Let there be known that it cannot be any Romanian-Hungarian cooperation, as long as in the railway station of Magyar "Kolozsvar" still is written the disgusting Romanian name of "Cluj"." ("Pesti Hirlap" newspaper, 28th October 1932)
• "I propose the following laws: 1. Starting today, every Romanian school must be suppressed; primary schools, high-schools, etc. 2. Those who want to learn, must learn in the Hungarian language. This is the only way they can have citizen rights. 3. Every Romanian theological school must be closed. [...] Nobody will be allowed to be a priest, except in the areas inhabited by Hungarians. The same rule for the teachers and instructors. 5. In the areas inhabited by Romanians, kindergartens with Hungarian teachers will be set up, so that they will only have to speak in Hungarian. 6. Whoever doesn't like these measures, will have to leave to Mountainia in 3 years." (Hungarian prelat, Iosif Meisel, Cluj-Napoca, 29th January 1918) The file File:Csabaa.jpg has an uncertain copyright status and may be deleted. You can comment on its removal.
• "Not only do we want to stop our most miserable of our enemies from the Carpathians, but we also want Romania to be wiped out from the map of Europe." (Eugen Cholnoky, 5th September 1916, "Ujsag" newspaper)
• "We want to have a common border with Bulgaria. Those preparing the peace process should acknowledge this." (Nandor Urmanczy, 2nd March 1918, "Ujsag" newspaper)
• "We must take from Romanians the Delta of Danube, too, for, lacking the sea, enclosed between Russians, Bulgarians, and Magyars, Romanians will have to come at our mercy. Not only politically, but also economically. And, after the peace negotiations, France and England will kiss Romania good bye. It is not enough to make peace with our enemy, we have to settle accounts with him, too." (dr. Antal Kalmar, 13th March 1918, "Ujsag" newspaper)
• "While the children are playing, those who don't speak Hungarian shall not be allowed to play..." ("Magyarorszag" newspaper from 26 May 1904)
• "The Romanians are not allowed to denounce the Hungarian evildoers to the 12 juries of the shire, but the Hungarians can denounce the Romanian ones." (A decree of the hungarian officials from Targu Mures, December 1551)

Whatever you are quoting above are newspaper articles or statements by some insignificant or marginal literary or political figures (hardly anyone really knows who Dücső Csaba was). The "extermination" of minorities as you have put it has never been an official policy of any Hungarian government. Quite the contrary: during the dualism years, as proven by statistics, there were more Romanian schools in Transylvania than in Romania proper. Furthermore, if ethnic oppression was so severe, how come that Romanians had their intact church autonomy, their own cultural associations (like Astra which flourished under Hungarian "oppression") and their own banks (like Albina, for example) who were quite successful in driving out Hungarian owners from their lands. About the Holocaust: Romania had an even worse record than Hungary (which for many years was the only save haven for Jewish people until the German occupation), considering the deportation and mass extermination of Jews in Bessarabia and Transnistria (under generals Calotescu and Isopescu, for example).

Whatever Magyarization happened during the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy was very mild compared to Slovakization and Romanianization in the successor states. Just consider the confiscation of Hungarian cultural and church property (e. g. the Franz Joseph University and the National Theatre in Kolozsvár, the closing of schools). These sad policies culminated in the regime of Ceausescu which signified a tragic endpoint of the Balkanization process where Romanian suzerainty led in Transylvania, a formerly well-developed, Central European province turned into a land of beggars, stray dogs and pickpockets. I am sorry if my words sound harsh and I know that Romania has finally found its way back to Europe but it has still a long way to go in terms of economic advancement and human rights to be considered a Central European country. Árpád 13:27, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Without taking up Árpád's remarks (except one thing: ASTRA mainly prospered in Sibiu, whose local elite were almost all Germans, not Magyars), most of the present-day part of this is pretty dismissable. Do you have any reason to think Molnar Josef is more representative of Hungarian opinion today than David Duke is of American opinion? Comsider what this anti-Semite is fulminating against: several Jews have prospered in recent Hungarian politics, which would seem to make a prima facie case that most Hungarians find his anti-Semitism every bit as repugnant as you and I. - Jmabel | Talk 04:50, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

ASTRA was founded in Sibiu (1861) and prospered in around 150 district all over Transylvania. Eg. 3200 popular libraries were established until 1920 ... --fz22 22:05, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean that Astra could not have prospered if the Hungarian had been the dominant ethnic group in Nagyszeben?? What about those Romanian banks which were quite successful in buying up land from Hungarian landowners? Árpád 20:07, 15 August 2006 (UTC

"Examples" of Magyarisation

Latinitas, please stop spaming this talk page and try to explain here relevance of your "examples" for the subject. I mean, what the hell they have to do with Magyarisation policy of the Hungarian state? Who care what some Ducso Csaba said somewhere? This should be seriuos article that speak about Magyarization state policy backed up with facts and statistics. I have very good sources about Magyarization through school system, election rights, etc, etc (backed up with large statistics data). However, my sources are in Serbian and I do not have time to translate them at this moment. I might do it in the future, but if you do not have to add serious facts about the subject, please refrain from spaming article with irrelevant data, ok? Thank you. PANONIAN (talk) 14:25, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Bring them and prsent them. This article needs some examples. Anyway the contempary quotes are good. --Latinitas 14:58, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I will present them when I find free time for that (which I do not have now, because I first should again read entire book about this to find all relevant data). And please tell me who the hell is this Ducso Csaba? Should we include here what every drunk Hungarian ever yelled in the street? Come on, man, if we start to use Wikipedia to quote opinion of every street drunkard from this World, we would totally destroy Wikipedia project. If you have quotes what some relevant Hungarian official said (like president of the government or minister for education) that would be relevant, but opinion of some guy for whom nobody ever heard is certainly not relevant. PANONIAN (talk) 20:22, 18 August 2006 (UTC) 20:22, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, Latinitas, I expanded article a little. You see now what facts and statistics mean, not the quoted sentences of who-knows-who. :) PANONIAN (talk) 22:53, 18 August 2006 (UTC)