Talk:Mahatma Gandhi/Dying words controversy

Gandhiji Dosen't Said Anything

Dying words

I think the section on his dying words [1] should be held in abeyance till this issue is resolved.

Pizzadeliveryboy 18:47, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Not necessarily; we simply need to report on the controversy in a fair and neutral way. — goethean ॐ 18:53, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Where is the controversy? The man who was there said the words were not spoken. I think that should seal the debate once and for all, and relegate all talk of his dying words to the trash can of urban legend. - Pizzadeliveryboy 19:01, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

article text

quoting the section dealing with controversy-at the time of

hate comments:

It is widely believed that Gandhi's last words (Hé! Rama) were as much an homage to God as they were an inspiring signal of his spirituality and idealism regarding the possibility of a unifying peace. However, the veracity of this claim has never been truly verified, with new claims from one of his personal attendants (Venkita Kalyanam, who was standing behind Gandhi when he was assassinated) actually alluding to the fact that Gandhi died without mentioning the words which have been widely ascribed to him, and made immortal by the inscription on his Samādhi at Rāj Ghāt, New Delhi. 183.87.234.211 (talk) 16:04, 6 July 2020 (UTC)These words were attributed to him by the government in order to get Hindu sentiments. His actual last words were "Rama" due to a involuntary reflex as stated by Nathuram Godse in his book.183.87.234.211 (talk) 16:04, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

kalyanam and the news article

the link cited above by Pizzadeliveryboy leads to a small article in a newspaper which says about what kalyanam said in kerala on 2006 jan 30: following that and probably based on that article alone yesrterday onwards several edits and reverts on the assasination section... Kalyanam , was the resident of Tenampet Chennai some years ago , in some get together /interview categorically said that Gandhi did not utter any word at the time of assasination and he was by the clise to Gandhi.

the above news article's major flaw seems to be that the reporter seems to think that it is for the first time kalyanam has said so. even if the reporter didn't think so, the wiki article at time of comment(quoted above) says, "new claims"

whereas the external links section of present wiki article contains a link to a detailed writeup published as early as 2001, [2]

anyone interested in the controversy please read that article before editing further, in case you don't have access or time for other resources for research.

and if you don't have time for reading that long write-up, here's quoting from relevant section of it:

Yet Gandhi’s former "aide", V. Kalyanam, who claims to have been by his side when the assassination took place, recalled recently that "Mahatma Gandhi never said ‘He Ram’ when he died. It was a fiction of the imagination, of those who came later." Kalyanam admits that Gandhi often said, "I wish I could die with the name of Ram on my lips", but he denies that these words were uttered by Gandhi as the bullets struck him. (7) Kalyanam could not have been very close to Gandhi, however, since Manu and Abha were on either side of him; in the days following his last fast, moreover, Gandhi’s voice was very faint, and he was certainly further away from Gandhi than the two young women who became known as his walking sticks. Kalyanam’s testimony also stands contradicted by Manu and Abha, as one might expect. It is not unimportant that, though describing himself as an "aide" to Gandhi, Kalyanam is not mentioned in any of the noted, or even minor, biographies of Gandhi; indeed every modern-day politician has an aide, but Gandhi cannot be assimilated to the creatures who inhabit the world of modern politics. Neither is there any independent verification of Kalyanam’s whereabouts on that fateful evening.

where source (7)is cited as : (7) "Gandhi did not say ‘He Ram’ when he died", Indian Express (Chennai), 19 Feb. 1998, a similar report citing kalyanam's words. i don't know anything about kalyanam, i assume good faith as regards what people several generations old tell.

and the content of that quoted write-up regarding the politics of the statement is quite well researched, good reading for anyone interested. -Pournami 07:03, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

MORE COMMENTS

the book "MG, the last 200 days", is a compilation of daily articles for the hindu newspaper that ran for 200 days ending 30 jan 1998, the 50th anniversary of death. these articles were written by v ramamurhty, (who was 12 in 1948), an author of scholarly credentials. the source of all information included were the hindu's archives and the letters and articles written by mg himself. on the article of day 195, dealing with jan 24, 1948, ramamurthy quotes from a letter written by gandhi to someone named Jaisukhlal Gandhi. In which Gandhiji writes that he wants to die with the name of God Rama-Rama Nama--on his lips:

I have expressed my wish at prayer that, should someone kill me, I should have no anger in my heart against the killer, and that I should die with Rama Nama on my lips

so, if he said hey ram as his last words, his wish came true, if not, no: Either way, no use arguing back and forth about it. i don't think manu and abha find mention in the article, so why should kalyanam be mentioned, if his only claim to fame is this belated revelation of the disputability of attributed last words?--Pournami 10:02, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

changed the paragraph to as follows:

Gandhi's tomb (or Samādhi) at Rāj Ghāt, New Delhi, bears the epigraph, (Devanagiri: हे ! राम or, Hé! Rama), which may be translated as O! Lord Ram. These are believed to be the last words he spoke before dying. For a detailed discussion of the veracity, interpretation and political significance of these words, refer Hey Ram: The Politics of Gandhi's Last Words

I have tried to maintain both sides of the debate in the new version - the fact that many believe the legend as claimed by people close to him, and the fact that new loght on this matter throws some doubt.

Pizzadeliveryboy 13:03, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

your new version reads(sorry abt echoing article text constantly):

Gandhi's memorial (or Samādhi) at Rāj Ghāt, New Delhi, bears the epigraph, (Devanagiri: हे ! राम or, Hé! Rāma), which may be translated as "O! God". These are widely believed to be Gandhi's last words after he was shot at, though the varacity of this statement has been disputed by many [3].

about "widely" and "by many".. it only implies that a large number of believers on either side of debate, right? imo, "it is believed" is sufficient;

about the number of people on either side of debate: 1, i don't think anyone at all is interested in the debate of whether or not the words were said: not even kalyanam: he said a lot of things on that press conference and the toi article only mentions this about the last words: very sloppy reporting i think. 2, hey ram is always associated, identified with gandhi, it sure is the writing on the memorial stone, 3, there's only three witness accounts: manu and abha(two young girls at the time, constant companions of bapu) says yes; he said so; kalyanam, (at the time 25) says, definitely not; others present at the time, no comment. 2-1-0. two syllables of barely audible sound, some 60 years ago, no way to know, no need to care in my opinion. (and those two syllables happen to be instantly recognized anywhere in india as being last words of gandhiji)

as an aside: incidentally, that link article does not debate the veracity of the attibuted last words; its says just these few lines i quoted above; rather, deals with the politics of the controversy.

again, i honestly think my version of the paragraph is better for the article than yours; but that is a personal opinion of mine; i'll let your version stay for now. i won't edit your version of the paragraph. Rather, as and when you think it fit to respond to this comment, please consider replacing your version of the paragraph with mine: only if you think that is ok. -Pournami-- and veracity is the right spelling, is it not?

and btw, it's not new light thrown on the matter. kalyanam now 83, he's been saying it ever since 1948. -Pournami 10:51, 1 February 2006 (UTC)