Talk:Mail and plate armour

the link http://www.geocities.com/normlaw/ (Armour and Warriors of the Silk Road) is real, but sometimes it falls :(

• the direct link is http://www.geocities.com/normlaw/page9.html

"Plated" mail

The term seems made up in English, though the 3 mentioned armors are linked at the reference and referred to as plates or scales embedded in or attached to each other with "chain" links.

So, then the question is whether these are all types of armor made from plates embedded in chain mail, or whether the article should be reworded). Beyond what I've done, I'm leaving this to another. 69.243.168.118 07:37, 29 April 2007 (UTC) Formerly the IP-Address 24.22.227.53

My understanding is that the article's scope includes all form of armour that consist of plates embedded in mail. The title is somewhat debatable, and I'd welcome a scholarly opinion on the name. --Eyrian 08:24, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I haven't really read up on wikipedia policy as to direct translation of terms between languages, but this seems a good way of doing it to me. 69.243.168.118 08:29, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Embedded Plates

I don't think the plates were 'embedded' in the chain mail. That seems like a funny way to do things. The transition to plates process seems to have started with the 'pair of plates' under the surcoat, expanded with the addition of 'splints' on the upper and lower legs (vulnerable areas). I think elbows and knees were the next to be 'plated', but I am not sure. Shoulders seem to happen about the same time, and things make a jump to near complete plate suits. I'm still trying to find out of the 'plated mail' made the jump to 'plate armor'. Chainmail seems to have persisted, but covered increasingly smaller areas, until it joined with the gambeson to become the 'arming doublet' that went underneath plate armor. In any case, the idea of 'embedded plates' seems to have been coined by Gary Gygax (of DnD fame). Theblindsage 08:47, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

they are embeded (weaved) not rivetted http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%98%D0%B7%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5:Bechter_1.gif —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.115.54.58 (talk) 12:44, 10 September 2007 (UTC) (this picture needs to be redrawn, as it according FU policy will be removed from ru-wiki by the spring as picture that could be redrawn)

it had no jump to plate armour, coz' plate armour and plated mails both are appeared in 14c in diifferent regions, so they are an alternative constrcutions. if you look for oriental plate armour you'd beter look mirror armour article

• you should also look at http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/katchu.ch03.html (link from the article) which shows a japanse version, which is also has embeded (not rivetted) plates. and also doesn't lead to plate armor - japanse cuirasses are originated from laminar armour (from horizonatal strips), by riveting and hammering instead lacing. AND HAS NO RELATION Gary Gygax!!!!!!!!!!!!

what are they?

these pictures from commons:

• 
  image:Cote_de_maille_Jazeran_1.JPG maille normande servant de base aux autres mailles
• 
  image:Cote_de_maille_Jazeran_2.JPG Maille jaseran
• 
  image:Cote_de_maille_Jazeran_3.JPG Maille jaseran différente
• 
  image:Cote_de_maille_Jazeran_4.JPG Maille jaseran différente

does any body know is this a real eropean armour or not? just I've never herad about that kind of armour existed in Europe. However they looks the same as japanese kusari and kikko —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.115.54.148 (talk) 14:04, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I've asked experts and send 'em to http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Fantasy_Armour as DnD armour —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.115.55.236 (talk) 12:24, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Geber

The reference added about plated mail being invented by Geber seems odd. The book referenced does not seem to be about weapons and the article on Geber does not mention this invention (or any work on arms). Geber worked in the 8th century but the first pieces of plated mail note are from the 15th century. Also plated mail was not used for shields or helmets. Your help in cleaning up this reference would be appreciated. Mercutio.Wilder (talk) 04:26, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

• it was book of Pseudo-Geber —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.116.226.188 (talk) 15:35, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Yushman

Yushman (Russian: Юшман) —- long horizontal plates embedded in chainmail and resembling laminar armour (e.g. roman lorica segmentata and Japanese Môgami Dô)

vs

Yushman (Russian: Юшман) —- long horizontal plates embedded in chainmail and resembling lamellar armour (e.g. Japanese Môgami Dô)

please look the photo Image:Turkey.Bodrum073.jpg it is more similar to segmentata than lamellar armour, just 'coz plates are quite big and horizontal

laminar

worn with laminar pauldrons and skirt (formed from long, horizontal plates)

vs

worn with lamellar pauldrons and skirt (formed from long, horizontal plates)

long horizontal plates are not lamellar armour they are laminar armour!

{{Fact|date=December 2007}}

The main difference between eastern European (Russian and Polish) and Oriental plate mail is that eastern European versions usually do not have sleeves, while Oriental versions have elbows and long sleeves (the forearms were protected by vambraces).

is check this about vambraces or about?
the whole pragraph which has link two Bobrov is written on the base of his paper:

http://www.kyrgyz.ru/?page=203 (Leonid Bobrov "Panoply of a Late Medieval Central Asian Warrior")

Обычно различают два вида бехтерцев: "русский" и "восточный". Основное отличие заключалось в том, что "русские" бехтерцы были лишены рукавов и застегивались на плечах и на одном боку (табл.8, рис. 4), в то время как "восточные" имели кольчужные рукава обычно до середины предплечья и одевались через голову или имели осевой разрез [67].
translation:

Usually two kinds of Behterets are separated: "Russian" and "Oriental". The main difference is that "Russian" Behterets did not have sleeves and buttoned up at shoulders and side (table 8 picture 4), while "Oriental" had mail sleeves, usualy to middle of fortearm long, and dressed over a head or had pivotal slit [67].

about vambracers you may just look http://www.kyrgyz.ru/bbr/bobrov_03.html (from his paper) Bold text

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